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RWarehall: snip...
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Azhdar: Good points.
I asked this on other thread, but I like to read your opinion. So why GOG rejected games like "The Binding of Isaac" and its remake? The game is top-rated and I think its price is fair. Also, it has enough players on Steam and its sale rate is good. So why TBOI is still "too niche" by GOG standards? Are there any reasons why GOG version of TBOI may not be successful as much as its Steam version?
I can't give you an answer. Neither has been seriously overbundled.

The Binding of Isaac
Owners: 2,913,314 ± 37,265
Players in the last 2 weeks: 91,950 ± 6,656

The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth
Owners: 1,374,572 ± 25,673
Players in the last 2 weeks: 445,838 ± 14,647

I realize GoG probably wants into the new releases, but the games sure seem to belong in the catalog. Makes me wonder if there is more to it. Developer wants a bigger cut? Object's to the contract like Jonathon Blow? Early version crashed on them?

I don't want to always play devil's advocate. Surely some of these games belong. And I agree Binding of Isaac and its sequel clearly appear to belong. I just worry whether all these threads with all these other marginal titles takes away from more legitimate complaints like this one.

Edit: And in terms of a price being fair...so many people buying the game at whatever the price seems to strongly support that.
Post edited January 30, 2016 by RWarehall
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Vythonaut: ....some updates take a lot of time to come here
....Galaxy is currently a mess (or so i hear)
....account security is compromised and that leads to many account hijacks
These are at-least actually being worked on and don't believe everything you hear, some people just love to hate. ;)

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Vythonaut: ....the site turned grey
This isn't really a problem, well not for everyone anyway. As they say you can't please everyone.
Post edited January 30, 2016 by user deleted
As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty simple: If you let me buy the games I want, I will buy more games.

I'm sure that's true for most people.


GOG's demonstrated time and again that their overzealous curation does nothing to keep crappy games out (see yesterday's release of the thoroughly busted Bombshell), but it does plenty to keep out games that people with interests outside of strategy and Eurojank might want to play. Some like to trot out the argument that GOG loses money if they bring in all these new games... but if it's actually too costly for GOG to bring new content on-board, they need to seriously rethink the way they're running the business, because that's absurd.

This is a store. It is not a boutique. It never will be. That's not how this industry even works. So, I would appreciate it if GOG would stop being so precious about its library of increasingly uninteresting games and get back on course.
Even here. Look, I searched everywhere I could think of. Nowhere do I see any mention of GoG rejecting Binding of Isaac. I do see some mention of the developers not wanting to release Rebirth without DRM though...

I see 100's of games listed in threads claiming GoG rejected them and without proof at all. In fact I can often find developer mention about Steamworks, leaderboards and multi-player being important to them...

Doesn't sound like most of these games were ever submitted to GoG.
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RWarehall: I see 100's of games listed in threads claiming GoG rejected them and without proof at all.
"Our best selling game has something like half a million owners on Steam. We released it on a few other stores (not GOG because they turned us down) and sold only a tiny fraction of that AND it's a pain to keep those versions updated AND it's a pain to actually get paid from those stores (Steam automatically pays us every month; the other places require us to submit official invoices whenever we want to get paid and you have to exceed a certain minimum which is hard to meet since sales are so low). It's just not worth all the extra effort to increase sales by such a tiny amount." - Robert Boyd from Zeboyd Games

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/breath_of_death_vii_the_beginning
http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/cthulhu_saves_the_world

"Sure, but you'd have to get accepted by GOG and Humble too. Speaking from experience. GOG rejected LOVE when it went up on Steam, but then again I haven't tried since GOG Universe." - Fred Wood

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/love
Post edited January 30, 2016 by Barry_Woodward
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Barry_Woodward: "Our best selling game has something like half a million owners on Steam. We released it on a few other stores (not GOG because they turned us down) and sold only a tiny fraction of that AND it's a pain to keep those versions updated AND it's a pain to actually get paid from those stores (Steam automatically pays us every month; the other places require us to submit official invoices whenever we want to get paid and you have to exceed a certain minimum which is hard to meet since sales are so low). It's just not worth all the extra effort to increase sales by such a tiny amount." - <span class="bold">Robert Boyd from Zeboyd Games</span>
And funny how the developer seems to complain about being anywhere else but Steam...
So, when did they submit it? 2011 before it was released? Have they tried again? GoG really wasn't doing Indie games in 2011.

So, maybe GoG refused a few Indie games like Braid and Binding of Isaac back before their big Indie push, but frankly, most of the recent rejections I can totally understand. Even Jonathon Blow while saying he talked to GoG, he also said he didn't like their contract and didn't want to rewrite for them. And I found a quote about Rebirth where the same developers said they have no plans for a DRM-free release.
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RWarehall: I see 100's of games listed in threads claiming GoG rejected them and without proof at all.
See the attachment below to read the Twitter direct message conversation with developer Rob Maher about Rex Rocket being denied release on GOG.

http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/rex_rocket
>>Trailer
>>Review
>>Soundtrack
Attachments:
Post edited January 30, 2016 by Barry_Woodward
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RWarehall: I realize GoG probably wants into the new releases, but the games sure seem to belong in the catalog. Makes me wonder if there is more to it. Developer wants a bigger cut? Object's to the contract like Jonathon Blow?
Hmmm... Actual devs wanting a larger cut couldn't be a horrible thing, raking in 30% just for offering the sales and hosting the files seems like a little high. Consider in normal retail the price is raked up 25% and that covers the costs of the building, employees and overhead like dealing with returns.

So let's assume we're talking about a can of beans or something and costs 50 cents to manufacture. A wholesaler will buy from the manufacturer in bulk and add 25% to the price taking it to 63 cents a can, then the grocery store buys from the whole salers who then rake up 25% to cover costs. taking it to 79 cents a can. If we lay that out:

Manufacturer: 50 cents (63.3%)
Wholesaler: 13 cents (16.5%)
Grocery Store: 16 cents (20.25%)

Now note i said DEVS not PUBLISHERS. As i understand it publishers tend to do something more akin to a 70/30 split (or they used to, this is where my math is based on). So if we go in reverse calculations we'd find for a $10 game:

StoreFront: $3.00 (30%)
Publisher: $4.90 (49%)
Dev: $2.10 (21%)

Don't those figures look suspiciously similar to what Bethesda/Valve wanted to do with selling mods for skyrim? (using the same buisness model of selling skins on LoL/Dota2)

Now If we go with EA/Ubisoft wanting to sell/move games tn their own platform (most likely they'd say they are not giving the dev anymore than if they got it from another storefront 'to be fair' they'd most likely say), that becomes:
Dev: $2.10-$3.00 (21-30%)
Publisher: $7.00-$7.90 (70-79%)

Now i realize publishers used to have to take a risk with an investment generally making tens of thousands of copies, boxes, manuals (well they used to have manuals), and shipping them to the stores before they got paid; But with Digital Distribution that model seems iffy anymore. On the other hand the physical copies tend not to go on sale nearly as often unless they are just trying to get stuff out the door and gone... Stuff that's not relevant anymore and hasn't been sold for years yet sticks to the shelf like used gum.

I really don't know. But for dealing directly with Devs, i'd say the cut should be 20% rather than 30%; Real small indie studios can then have a little more money to play with and keep them alive. Large publishers? They set their games at $20-$60 so any losses from the 10% difference is lost in the price escalation anyways.

But that's my post, my 2 cents, and probably i'll get told my math is wrong on some of this, but it's a place to start, or just ignore for my ignorance.
Post edited January 30, 2016 by rtcvb32
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Ganni1987: 1) Oblivion is not here yet.
2) Where is Oblivion?
3) Unleash Oblivion upon us!
4) WHERE THE HELL IS OBLIVION?!
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Grargar: Ftfy.
I agree, where is Oblivion? It makes zero sense that GOG got Elder Scrolls 1-3, but not the 4th or 5th versions.
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Ganni1987: 2) Metro 2033 / Last Light Redux - The Mac and Linux story.

These 2 games have had the aformentioned versions released on Steam but not here. GOG didn't give a reason why and we later got a response that there were technical issues, but didn't mention of what kind.

From my knowledge the Mac performance is pretty poor, but Linux? It runs pretty well Check out for yourselves!, There's even a triple screen video showing the game natively on Linux.
I don't have the GOG version of this game yet, but does it support GOG Galaxy multiplayer? It seems that games that support Galaxy multiplayer are all Windows-only, presumably because they don't have the other OS ports of all the Galaxy stuff out there yet. This is just a hypothesis for this game.
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Ganni1987: 3) Too Niche / Refused Games.

In December of last year this thread came up, it mainly focused about a game called "Fall of the Dungeon Guardians" which GOG refused to sell here, whatever the reason was. It isn't the first game to be refused by GOG either, user Barry Woodward made many threads regarding such refused games and the devs all seemed to get a similar robotic response.

Then at some point GOG releases a game which doesn't seem much better than the ones they refused not long ago. (I'm not implying Punch Club is a bad game btw).
Realistically, just about every game made has people out there that enthusiastically want to buy it. So you either allow all games like Steam does and end up with a garden hose of endless games, many of which can be rightfully referred to as "shovelware", or you have some manner of curation. When it comes to curation it is practically impossible to specify a detailed list of specific rules that get 100% evenly applied to all games out there, and people would just try to argue around each "rule" how the favourite game they want that rule doesn't apply or shouldn't apply etc. In short, people just want what they want no matter what.

So you either allow all games, or you curate them and some games just aren't going to make it and some people are going to be upset about that. But allowing all games as Steam does will upset an entire other group of customers who don't want Steam to turn into a big gardenhose of Indie games too. So essentially, both possibilities involve some number of people not getting what they want and being unsatisfied and upset about it. In some cases, people would fit into both groups - both wanting some game that has been rejected while simultaneously wanting curation to avoid GOG turning into the Steam indie garden hose.

GOG has explicitly decided to not be a garden hose of endless Indie games like Steam and they don't hide that fact though. Naturally when someone's game doesn't show up here or has been rejected they will feel bad about it, and they may even try to make sense out of how game A, B, or C, got accepted here and their game got rejected. Personally I think the worst thing GOG could do would be to spend a lot of time in the forums trying to explain and justify their choices to us. Rarely are such explanations going to result in everyone saying "Oh, now I see. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation GOG, you rock." The only thing that would result is for people to now have fresh ammunition to argue with GOG and try to use the new information against them until ultimately they get their own way and wont accept anything less than a turnaround decision on a given game.

It's like when we're children and our parents tell us we can't go to our best friends house tonight and we relentlessly ask "Why mommy?" and are told "because I said so", or they tell us why and we argue with them about it to try to get our own way. The smart parent goes with either an explicit "because I said so" or just an implied one with a glance or "The Look(TM)".

Sometimes mommy and daddy do make mistakes too though, and occasionally they might change their mind if we're good. Likewise, GOG has changed their mind on some titles in the past which they initially rejected because they had more demand than they originally anticipated or other factors. If people want to see a given game here they really need to vote for it on the wishlist. It doesn't guarantee it will show up here, but it's the best thing anyone can do to let GOG know they're interested in it.

Whenever someone does add a wishlist entry for such games though and post it in the forums, I usually go look at the game and if it seems interesting and I'd buy it - I'll go vote for it too. Most of the time I personally end up finding the game uninteresting or even mediocre and don't vote for it, but that's fine - it might be a great game that's just not for me. But then if you look at the votes the game gets over time it seems like almost nobody is interested in it other than a small number of enthusiastic people. A few dozen or few hundred votes on the wishlist is hardly going to be enough to convince GOG that a game will sell though I'm afraid. Even though there aren't any published thresholds beyond which GOG will try to bring a game here, I think it's safe to say that a few hundred or maybe even a few thousand is not enough. And if a game hasn't even been added to the wishlist yet, well that speaks even greater volumes IMHO.

Another factor that weighs in too though, is that sometimes people who eagerly want a game to be here will not only add it to the wishlist, but will beg people to vote for it including people that aren't even interested in it. They'll hold game giveaway contests where they either require people to vote for their favourite game(s) on the wishlist as a part of entry, or even just encourage people to do it without a requirement. While this may bump the number of votes up for a game, it does so disingenuously because the vote count no longer reflects the true amount of interest in the game. GOG sees that happen however and they will end up partly or entirely disregarding the votes for that given game because ultimately the voting is rigged and no longer representative of true interest in the game.

The bottom line though, is that GOG isn't Greenlight and it seems there are more people who don't want it to become Greenlight than not, so we can expect a crapload more rejections from GOG than acceptances by definition practically. Personally, a part of me wishes they'd actually reject even more of the games that actually end up coming to the store here, but then I respect the balance they're trying to achieve with curation and accept that some stuff will make it here that I'm not personally interested in too.

It seems the crux of the contention some people have over this, is that some people want to be able to buy any game they want DRM-free on GOG and thus want GOG to just open the floodgates and let the customer decide. GOG on the other hand has explicitly decided that they do not wish to have that as their business model, and that they consider the fact that they act as a curator to be a conscious business choice that results in a higher quality catalogue and that their customers overall appreciate this. I know I appreciate it at least, can't speak for the entire rest of the community however. GOG has rejected some games that even I'd buy too, but they know more about what meets their business agenda than I do, and quite possibly they know more about those given games than I do. Perhaps they've saved me from wasting my money. :)
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rtcvb32: snip
Your math seems about right from what I've read.

I think one problem with GoG in particular, they promise to support a game in the future. Steam: incompatible with a new OS, they'll leave it to rot, its solely up to the developer to update it. As far as I understand 30% is also the standard Steam terms, so I doubt GoG would want to undercut that with their added expenses.

I'm not saying they can't negotiate, but if the two parties don't agree to terms, how is this ALL GoG's fault (not saying you but) as so many seem to portray it.

And actually, as far as I know about "standard retail", the "store" usually gets at least 50% of the cut as wholesale cost is less than half retail.
There's too many games being put on gog that aren't old or good
The one major thing that irks me really badly is GOG's "too niche" bullshit.

GOG has plenty of shitty games, some of which even get a pass just because they are "old". As long as they are not selling well known broken or buggy games I'd appreciate it if they relaxed a little...
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Ganni1987: Snip
Well said. I can't think of anything meaningful to add. +1 to you.
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RWarehall: And actually, as far as I know about "standard retail", the "store" usually gets at least 50% of the cut as wholesale cost is less than half retail.
hmm the 25% part i was basing off of was my dad had a computer business. The wholesaler bumped the price probably at 20% rather than 25%, and the stores would usually bump up 25% and my dad did 20% to be competitive (plus the fact he didn't have any employees or a a separate rent building). Then like with the beans, the price of 79 they could bump it to a multiple of 5/10, or 1 cent less than a whole dollar.

Not to forget, a large number of retail stores have their own brand for soda, soup, flour, milk, etc; This means they don't have the wholesaler to deal with and they would definitely push them at 50%+ of the cut.