Personally, I'd like to do some class changing, and the reason I don't is that, in most cases, it's sub-optimal. Hence, I like to look for cases where it *isn't* sub-optimal.

In particular, Bard and Gadgeteer don't multiclass well, but Bishop does, and hybrids are nice final class choices (even though I think their class-specific abilities will tend to be weaker).
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Edit: In particular, in Wizardry 8 I don't consider "no class changing" to be a challenge run. Maybe in earlier games (and Japanese spin-offs), but not in 8.

(Not in 4 either, but that game doesn't give the option, though some of the do-gooders you fight have clearly class changed.)

I decided to test that, with a character hacked with 16 million XP, and it does appear to be the case.

In particular, this test character got level 1 as a bishop, then 9 levels as a mage. 12 Divinity (can't boost it further after class change), 32 Divine Magic (boosted solely through level ups), only spell known is Heal Wounds, and could reliably cast it as PL4 (or at least, that's the highest spell level that appeared green).

So, that's certainly interesting, and it affects the strategy some, as it means that a character who changes out of bishop can still make decent use out of other spells.

It also means that, after you've learned all the spells, you would optimally want to change to a different spellcasting class, probably Priest, for increased HP gains and faster leveling. (But Priest does need 55 Vitality.)

One reason to use a Mook Valkyrie is if you want to do a Bishop dip. 3 Levels of Bishop can give you access to Enchanted Blade and Missile Shield, which can be handy if you don't have anyone else who can use those spells, particularly if you also want Priest coverage (if you don't need that, you could just get those spells via Samurai). A Mook Ranger won't be able to become a Bishop until significantly later.

On the other hand, it turns out that it's possible to start a Dwarf as a Bishop, then change to Ranger at level 3, as the character already meets the Ranger stat requirements when coming off apprenticeship. Great way to get Scouting and those two wizard spells if you take the third level. (This doesn't give you X-Ray without more Bishop levels, but if you have a Gadgeteer in the party that's not a major issue.)

Seeing as Samurai do tend to be rather lacking due to not being able to use strong reliably available weapons that aren't the Giant's Sword, the Bishop dip strategy can be useful if you don't want to devote a character to spellcasting.

(Optimally, if you're going to do a Bishop dip, it's best to do 1, 3, 5, 8, 11, 14, or 18 levels, possibly saving the last of those levels until you can get the relevant spellbooks to learn all the spells.)

I'm doing an OG class run. This means, OG (original guys/ gals). The Bard and Gadgeteer can be absolutely badass with their weapons skill (Light Sword/Light Shield). The casters can be badass with their slings, hitting for KO/Kill/Paralyze.

Interesting constrained run idea: No primary skill usage.

Basically, the rule is that you are not allowed to use the class's primary skill. Note that this rule apples to active use; if you can't avoid using the skill in a certain context, you're still allowed to use it, but still can't put points into it.

Implications of this rule:
* If you want a polearm user, use Lord or Ranger. If you want a dual-wielder, use Valkyrie or Ranger. Fighters aren't allowed in melee because of their Close Combat primary skill.
* The primary casters are useless, because their spellbooj skill is their primary. Bishop is OK, though they're not allowed to use any item (as an item) that checks Artifacts. (You can't avoid identifying items with that skill, so that use is allowed, but no using, say, an Amulet of Life or Staff of Doom as an item (equipping the Staff of Doom and wielding it is allowed).
* Bard and Gadgeteer aren't significantly affected. Gadgeteers just need to avoid using modern weapons (so no Omnigun). For Bards, Communication isn't a skill you can really avoid using, so the restriction doesn't matter.
* Your Locks & Traps character must not be a Rogue.

Just one strange idea I have.

Another idea is an all-Apprentice run. The rule, here, is that every character must start as a race/class that gets negative bonus points. Class changing is allowed without special restrictions, and may be the only way to get access to simpler classes like Fighter. Character replacement is allowed as long as the new character starts as an Apprentice.

Good ammo is rather plentiful, to be frank. Impaling stones, hunter quarrels, and barbed arrows are easily stocked, for example. The best is limited, for sure. Some don't even appear in shops—dang peacemakers. Even then, standard bullets and a wrist rocket is still fourteen percent knock-out. Sure, that's when disruptor maces are available, true. Dual weapons tends to fall off early, delaying extra attacks/swings and reducing to-hit. Sure, it gets great late game, but... Sure, more damage is more damage, I'll concede, same with whip on a back shield user. Now, I'm not saying maces are bad. They're amazing, but they take time to get there. And, yes, for many classes, hammer is one of the best off-hand weapons for a long time. Nunchaka is stronger, but those classes don't get diamond eyes.

But a spell is cast and forget, and, with high enough power cast, one could always rest for those spell points—not necessary, but an option. Bards and gadgeteers are very strong though, so I can see wanting them in a party, and if one hates early game gadgeteer, that's not a bad strategy. I like priests, and the stamina casters don't gel well with my slow-paced style. Having level five spells on casters and still stuck with, mostly, level two spells on the other two is, well, disappointing. Gishes, at least, have more spells to cast by then, and variety can be more fun than power. Scrolls of identify are great for training artifacts because they can consistently fail. Of course, one could also split identify, placed items in inventory with identifying them, re-unidentifying items, and grab the fire sticks before anyone can identify them. All of which can get artifacts to thirty-something on the first map of the game. Just an option for certain peoples.

Arnika road is one of the most fun parts of the game. But I'm a biased low-level lover. I'm also somewhat of what a certain epic character builder calls a "melee merchant." Blinding flash is great for Gregor, I'll admit that much.

Grinding music and engineering leads to more backfires at high power levels, especially on expert. If one doesn't use stamina casters for magical damage, I guess it's fine.

Ranged combat can be nice, but missile shield casting foes sure are a drag. A shame I prefer the stealth gishes, that infinity helm sure seems nice.

I'm more of a single-classer, because I like to learn the ins-and-outs of what a class provides in-and-of-itself before messing around. But, once I know what I'm doing, I'll get into it. Even if my current Neverwinter Nights character is a (planned) Monk(35)/Fighter(5).

Class changing into psionic, for mind immunity, is popular amongst some users for the peak. Fighter is also popular.

I agree that spell availability breakpoints would be optimal times for changing out of bishop. Just remember, changing to a hybrid reduces the power level success rates for all spells right away.

Challenges are fun. I'd say "maxing-the-min" is often more fun than pure optimization, even. Lord knows, I've played far too many strength halflings in NWN.

I see Blinding Flash as more of a spell to use when surrounded by multiple high HP enemies, so that you don't have to fight them all at once. (Also, in a situation like Arnika Road, this spell may buy you enough time to run to the area transition point, at which point you can leave the area, and hence the battle.)

On the other hand, I like multi-classing, because it opens up many more possibilities for character builds, with all sorts of combinations available. It's the sort of reason why I enjoy games like Final Fantasy 5, Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark, and am enjoying Crystal Project now.

(By the way, Fell Seal has a Gadgeteer class, and Crystal Project's Valkyire class gets an ability that's basically that game's version of Cheat Death. Wondering if either game's developer has played Wizardry 8?)

In Wizardry 8, I would consider trying to get the best deal out of multiclassing to be "maxing the min". I'd also consider the use of apprentices to be in that same category. Surprisingly, it turns out that the two actually work reasonably well together. A Dwarf Bishop, for example, can change to Ranger immediately on leaving apprenticeship.

How do you get surrounded that often, running straight down main? I guess blinding flash should affect enough modai to create a hole.

I was thinking about games like NWN where build determines gameplay loop. Easier to find an appealing loop if one learns the basics first. I'd like to say I prefer specialist—but my warrior/thief/mage Daggerfall characters might beg to differ, even if they only have two important stats. And, I do like generalist classes, like this game's ninja. Or, Dandy bards.

I could never get into FF III, V, or "Dimensions," even though I've tried. Actually, I only really like I and II. Doesn't help that I prefer phased-based in my blob-esque combat.

Makes sense when every class is powerful. Bishop multis are pretty strong, though. I wonder how bad a lizardman bishop truly is—probably not hugely.

I like the idea of themed parties too, like all spearmen or all gishes—no class repeats—or oops, all earthquake! That is: bishop, alchemist, gadgeteer, ninja, ranger. That last one shouldn't be that challenging, actually. I mean, it can do all three types of damage well enough. All mind flay, nuclear blast, and falling stars could be fun too.

But shouldn't a party of all earthquake users have trouble dealing with groups of flying enemies, since earthquake attacks shouldn't affect them?

Except that that's not actually how Wizardry 8 works. Not only do earthquakes work on flying enemies, but many of them (including those flying insects) have low Earth resistance (and low HP), and will therefore die rather quickly to earthquake spam.

(I know Wizardry 5 has an earthquake spell (LOKARA) that doesn't work on certain enemy types; I wonder if flying enemis are immune there.)

[BUILDS CHARACTER...]
Great status message this

I find that the Alchemist (Fire Bomb, Tsunami, Noxious Fumes, Quicksand, Earthquake) and Mage (Fireball, Nuclear Blast, Iceball, Shrill Sound, Noxious Fumes, Asphyxiation, Whipping Rocks, Magic Missiles) have the most variety, in terms of area of effect realms. The Priest only has a few (Lightning, Whirlwind, Falling Stars, Death Wish), and the Psionic is very limited, heavily skewed towards the Mental realm (Psionic Fire, Shrill Sound, Ego Whip, Psionic Blast, Mind Flay).
Note that I ignored annoying spells like the Mage's Blizzard (can cause blindness, causing enemies to run away), the Psionic's Pandemonium (can cause fear, again causing enemies to run away), the Psionic's Prismic spells (can cause any number of effects, including blinding and fear), the Alchemist's cloud spells (they do damage over time, not ideal for a MDP that wants to kill quickly), the Priest and Mage's Banish (very situational, only useful against summons and undead).
The Bard and Gadgeteer can help out later, once they get better instruments/gadgets, but the annoying thing is that you can't control the power level they are "cast" at. I have seen my level 34 Bard "cast" Bless at level 1 several times. That's why I don't understand parties that rely on the Bard's Rousing Drums (Haste instrument). It doesn't work underwater, can be "cast" at a low power level, and you get no benefit from Haste until Round 2, since turn order is set right away. A party that wants to ignore Speed like that would be better having a Psionic, at least you are guaranteed to have Haste cast at power level 7, and it might even be better with Powercast.
I was thinking about the 2 Light Swords thing, as well. The Bard can get to 125 Strength with just her specialty equipment (Ring of the Road, +20 Strength, Caliban's Cuirass, +10 Strength). The Gadgeteer only has Tinker's Carryall Bracers (+20 Strength). Fang is a guaranteed Sword for her, and it would boost her Strength by 10, getting her to 125 Strength, just like the Bard. So the Bard should use the Light Sword, and the Gadgeteer Fang. Note that the Bard and Gadgeteer can't use a lot of the good swords (no Giant's Sword, Demonsbane, or Ivory Blade).

Worth noting, however, that the Psionic has one spell, Psionic Blast, that uses a targeting type that isn't used by any other damage spell in the game. Psionic Blast is the only spell that can hit enemies you can't see that aren't just around the corner. (If an enemy is just around the corner, you might be able to catch it in the radius of a Fireball. Note that spells like Nuclear Blast and Mind Flay will not work in this instance.)

Also worth noting that, at higher power levels, cloud spells do significantly more damage, if you count all the damage done over the entire spell's duration, making these spells possibly useful in longer battles. The catch is, however, that an enemy can basically shut down the spell with Magic Screen or Element Shield. (Draining Cloud can get past Element Shield (but is affected by Soul Shield), but the catch is that it's not that strong, the stamina drain doesn't seem to work, and the game doesn't track enemy SP.)

Worth noting that Mage is better at low levels (Magic Missiles (which unfortunately shares its SP with Enchanted Blade, and for Bishops, Heal) and Fireball), while Alchemist is better at higher levels (Quicksand, Tsunami, and often Earthquake is better than Nuclear Blast (particularly against Rapax and underwater).

Thank you. I was just going to say that Psionic Blast is the best for hitting enemies that you can't see. It's unique in that regard, giving the Psionic something above the other casters (aside from his immunity to mental conditions, something that would make him great in Bayjin, or Ascension Peak).
I get that Draining Cloud will only work for maybe draining hit points and stamina. The enemies seem to get unlimited magic points, which is why I only used this spell to train the Alchemist's Divine realm.
Every caster seems to enjoy a specific benefit, which is why I chose one of each.
Edit: While nobody will talk about this fact, sitting still for 2000 rounds or so has given my Bard and Gadgeteer Snake Speed skill in the 90s, catching up with the casters.

Some like to give bards bloodlust. Of course, the *light* *sword* should be stronger. Give up +100% damage and extra swing for twenty-seven base damage max and extra accuracy.

The fewer (relevant) realms of alchemy and psionics is a boon for hybrids.

Clouds are horrible for MDPs due to how fast magic damage combat is combined with the vast amount of trash mobs. Support spells and physical damage is usually better for set "boss" encounters. For more balanced parties and PDPs, clouds can be useful at times.

Psionics gets some nice spells for certain parties. Like: hypnotic lure, haste, eye for an eye, psionic blast, and might to magic.
Priest magic damage is strong, even if it's limited. But Wiz8 is a rest in dungeon game, so...

Long duration buffs are a boon to damage spells in the same realm. The most extreme example being light and lightning.

All the specialist casters are strong, and they have an easier time getting reasonable physical damage skills than a bishop. (Not saying a bishop has to be a pure mage, but it's a valid build. See: three fighters, one bishop, two others parties.) All four books have really nice unique spells, some more useful to specific parties, which is not a bad thing.

Provided you have enough SP. Earlier on, casting Enchanted Blade means you won't have enough SP to spare on Magic Missiles, for example.