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Telika: This is now a webcomics thread.
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pimpmonkey2382: Ahahah win.
Alas it cruelly applies to me too (BUT note the alt text aswell).

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pimpmonkey2382: Thats why there are religious leaders, they can get the people to believe precisely what they want them to.
That's not exactly how it works. Many catholics disregard the pope. Religions are very elastic. Without even mentionning collective schisms, and all the evolutions where the leaders were the ones adapting to the crowds, individuals generally use to negociate with the official words on religions.
"Claims without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence."
Sigh you know this is just so unbelievably typical :( People simply cannot for the life of them stick to their convictions no matter how readily they swear that they always will. I think it is important though, to have your convictions on paper, and to then read it aloud as often as possible. I've learned my lesson though this time: next time I am going to make a infernal shopping list. Why, oh why do I not have a single drop of lemon juice in my flat?? The whole blasted day I said "I am going to buy lemon juice when I go to the shops later today" Now how am I supposed to drink my water without that hint of lemony freshness? They say the tapwater is potable but it sure doesn't taste like it :P

Guess I'll go and make some coffee
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IAmSinistar: I used to be a reductionist and saw everything as atomic machinery. But now I'm an emergencist, fully apprised and amazed at the incredible power of emergence to create properties and syntheses far beyond the total of the parts.
I don't see reductionism and emergence as mutually exclusive. They work on different ends of the complexity spectrum and try to understand different sets of phenomena, although there are probably some interesting grey areas.
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Momo1991: I hate rabbit holes...they make my brain hurt!
But the bunnies are so cute! Especially the quantum ones. :)
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s23021536: Sigh you know this is just so unbelievably typical :( People simply cannot for the life of them stick to their convictions no matter how readily they swear that they always will. I think it is important though, to have your convictions on paper, and to then read it aloud as often as possible. I've learned my lesson though this time: next time I am going to make a infernal shopping list. Why, oh why do I not have a single drop of lemon juice in my flat?? The whole blasted day I said "I am going to buy lemon juice when I go to the shops later today" Now how am I supposed to drink my water without that hint of lemony freshness? They say the tapwater is potable but it sure doesn't taste like it :P

Guess I'll go and make some coffee
I want some coffee.
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spindown: I don't see reductionism and emergence as mutually exclusive. They work on different ends of the complexity spectrum and try to understand different sets of phenomena, although there are probably some interesting grey areas.
Quite so, they are both powerful tools in the realm of science. I meant more from a philosophical standpoint - I used to view us as meat machines, explainable by our components, but now view us as organic syntheses, greater than just our parts. I do not discount reductionism itself, merely say that now fall upon the opposite pole with regards to the human condition.
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pimpmonkey2382: My reply: "Then who created the creator? It's an illogical never ending cycle."
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IAmSinistar: "God always was" is usually the answer. To which I then have to ask, "Why would a timeless being create time? Why would a substanceless being create substance? Why would a perfect being create imperfection?"

Conundrum upon conundrum, once the box is opened.
And that is why Gnosticism is a thing. What with the demiurge being an imperfect being and creating imperfect base matter and whatnot.
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pimpmonkey2382: I want some coffee.
I just made coffee. And it's delicious.
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Leucius: I worded it very poorly. I never meant to imply an "us versus them" mentality or that atheists are some sort of satanic cult or fad - I meant the opposite.
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Telika: Yeah but your post (which you shouldn't have erased) did somehow imply that atheists were "against" believers. It gave me the impression that, by atheists, you meant aggressively zealous antireligious dickheads, which are a subcategory atheism shouldn't be reduced to.

Basically I agree with your post, but I was a bit perplexed by how "not obvious" you were making it, or how you assumed it wouldn't be obvious to atheists. Many (most, dare I believe) of them simply don't consider religion as important enough to argue about it, and not significant enough to judge people (or assume someone's values) through it.

Your post felt like a white flag waved on a field with no war - leading me to believe that you believed that there was one going on.
Again, I apologize. There was a great war between theists and atheists a few years ago, and I assumed it was still going on. Hence the white flag.
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Luisfius: And that is why Gnosticism is a thing. What with the demiurge being an imperfect being and creating imperfect base matter and whatnot.
Well stated, and an excellent point. Another reason why I am glad to include among my friends those of many religious/philosophical stripes. There is so much fertile richness in this field of discourse.

At the risk of sounding trivial, the episode of Aeon Flux titled "The Demiurge" actually touches on this topic, in its own abstruse way.
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DieRuhe: Well, I don't think beliefs can be proven, anyway. I mean, I get it; everyone who says "I believe in God" cannot actually prove it (even if they try by saying "The Bible says so"). It is simply what they believe to be so. Beliefs are not facts, and even "facts" can change over time. I think people tend to misuse/misunderstand the word "belief" anyway; they want to cement it in solidity when it's more like a river.

But saying "If they believe it, then they must prove it" works both ways, in my opinion. It's no different than someone saying "You don't believe. Prove that."

Interesting that the onus is generally on someone professing a belief in favor of something who must then "prove" it, whereas "not believing" seems to be given a free pass - ie, "I don't believe you on (X), but I have no obligation to tell you why; I just don't." So why isn't that response good enough for the "other side"?

I guess I just don't understand - "I don't believe you. Prove it." If one doesn't believe in something, who even cares why the other person thinks what they think? For the sake of argument?
I don't remember the argumentative rules behind this but try proving something doesn't exist is a much more complicated and unnecessary endeavor than proving something actually exist. Further more, the idea of "you make the claim, you prove it" is basically an analogy that you earn the word that you say, argumentative trusting if you will.

You are right though that it's tricky at least to prove "I don't deny a deity's existance because I don't believe in them, I merely lack faith."

If it helps the idea of lacking faith is a way for atheism to distance themselves from theism, otherwise it just becomes a debate between "I believe in X, someone else in Y" instead of the idea that some don't believe at all. I suppose that is what frightens many religious people because for them religion is such a large part of their life and imagining non-existance of that essentially makes their lives meaningless in a matter of if atheism is true (argument's sake).

I wrote a post earlier but the forum seemed to have ate it. I was going to write this: "I believe human can lack faith." That is my belief. With one comes the other. You can't have life without death so you can't have faith without lack of faith.

Isn't there a better word or expression for lack of faith?
I was an atheist before it was mainstream
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dr.zli: I was an atheist before it was mainstream
It's not main stream. But not believing is hopefully becoming more common.
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Leucius: Again, I apologize. There was a great war between theists and atheists a few years ago, and I assumed it was still going on. Hence the white flag.
Well, there are still little crusaders on both sides. Simply don't assume them to be representatives of a general belief. Don't assume that militant atheists are necessarily supported by atheists (and if they imply so, simply remind them that they're not)...