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Vainamoinen: snip

No, that's a post in this thread. Should have been a wakeup call back then while things steadily escalated. Seems you ignored it. :(
I'm often ignored indeed. By both sides mind you... For example, the point I think is more important to make to you Vaina is:

Why are you so sure that GG was responsible here? Maybe consider it's confirmation bias?

To me it seems the demonization of adversaries is done by both sides, despite you focusing only (partially) on how GG needs the "SJW" enemy. The reverse is also true, and a constant critique from the very beginning of these culture wars in gaming was that the Anita approach of criticism was itself strawmanning a misogynistic "gamer" identity. Which demonization exploded and created GG out of the ZQ topic - which was at least somewhat narrower if more tragically personal.
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Shadowstalker16: snip
EDIT: its isn't there in the last few pages. Is it old?
The little arrow by the quote says it's post 6818 from end Feb. Click it and go. ;)
Post edited March 31, 2016 by Brasas
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Well, then trust me when I don't quote either. Also, I still have a little trouble linking anywhere, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. :)

More slanderous articles about Rapp can e.g. be found on thegg.net. I've criticised their stuff in quite some detail in this thread. Page 340, February 22nd, so yes, it's old, almost as old as the ongoing harassment. Naive as I am, I expected that at least this strong stance against the organized harassment and frivolous slander would get a few upvotes.

The next page, p. 341 has Brasas' response that I quoted, between five of your posts on the same page. You MUST have seen it. The warnings that this would escalate were many, and if you followed my posting history – I evidently only post in this thread when shit gets really really real, for obvious reasons. :(

To my knowledge, Rapp has not supported real life sexual contact between minors and adults. All I'm seeing brought up is a single tweet nebulously challenging our preconceptions in that respect. Before someone gives me a much clearer, much more direct and entirely different link to respective Alison Rapp's musings, I will treat the accusation as slander.



@YaTEdiGo: Don't call people "SJW". It's a modern concept of the Untermensch, therewith unacceptably abusive, and we've just had an impressive demonstration as to how utterly meaningless it is as a supposedly descriptive noun. You're seeing a few things in the present fiasco very clear. It would be great if you applied the same kind of reasoning to the way you treat GOG forum members.
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Vainamoinen: Well, then trust me when I don't quote either. Also, I still have a little trouble linking anywhere, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. :)

More slanderous articles about Rapp can e.g. be found on thegg.net. I've criticised their stuff in quite some detail in this thread. Page 340, February 22nd, so yes, it's old, almost as old as the ongoing harassment. Naive as I am, I expected that at least this strong stance against the organized harassment and frivolous slander would get a few upvotes.

The next page, p. 341 has Brasas' response that I quoted, between five of your posts on the same page. You MUST have seen it. The warnings that this would escalate were many, and if you followed my posting history – I evidently only post in this thread when shit gets really really real, for obvious reasons. :(

To my knowledge, Rapp has not supported real life sexual contact between minors and adults. All I'm seeing brought up is a single tweet nebulously challenging our preconceptions in that respect. Before someone gives me a much clearer, much more direct and entirely different link to respective Alison Rapp's musings, I will treat the accusation as slander.

@YaTEdiGo: Don't call people "SJW". It's a modern concept of the Untermensch, therewith unacceptably abusive, and we've just had an impressive demonstration as to how utterly meaningless it is as a supposedly descriptive noun. You're seeing a few things in the present fiasco very clear. It would be great if you applied the same kind of reasoning to the way you treat GOG forum members.
And here it came the police of the language (ad-hominems included), another common trait on SJWs, and of course not even mention the really important point of my estatement, but the neurosis with the words, if I wasn´t totally sure, now I have really clear what were been your opinion if Mrs Rapp were been Mr. Rapp
Post edited March 31, 2016 by YaTEdiGo
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Brasas: So... the medium article reads like a hit piece. Is it one?

In the comments that feeling dissipates. The reporting author clearly says they are linking the source material (which I had wondered about - it's source #4) and they imply or outright say the original author is defiending that CP should be legal. They seem convinced of it.

Reading the source material however, reveals a more nuanced picture:
- For one, the original author seems to be more focused on things like Anime and Manga.
- When considering "actual" CP she makes it clear near the end that she does not defend its creation or distribution. Only possession.
- She also makes it clear her defense of possession is more akin to depenalization rather than actual legalization.

This is basically a similar approach to others in the area of drug use. Heal the addict / user rather than jailing them. Somewhat legitimize usage of drugs in order to have clarity on the problem rather than keep it hidden. Continue to repress and jail drug traffickers and drug producers.

There are issues with these approaches, but after having read so far - and I was not exhaustive - I see the reporting author as likely dishonest - to me this was a hit piece, motivated by god knows what. I don't think they could have missed these nuances / context accidentally, since they actually linked the source materials and seem to have familiarity with it. Alternatively it is possible they were blinded by righteousness without any bad faith...

So to me this is a perfect example of the kind of lying by omission that anti GG usually does, but apparently on the GG side. Of course I have no idea - and it really does not matter - what any of these peopel feel about GG, in fact the position the original author takes against censorship of Japanese games would seem to align with the GG one.
Quoted so everyone can read.
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Brasas: Why are you so sure that GG was responsible here? Maybe consider it's confirmation bias?

To me it seems the demonization of adversaries is done by both sides, despite you focusing only (partially) on how GG needs the "SJW" enemy. The reverse is also true, and a constant critique from the very beginning of these culture wars in gaming was that the Anita approach of criticism was itself strawmanning a misogynistic "gamer" identity. Which demonization exploded and created GG out of the ZQ topic - which was at least somewhat narrower if more tragically personal.
Sorry for calling you here, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity quoting you back then; yours was a single post that deserved attention and respect amidst a barrage of boiling hate, one that clearly foresaw what was to follow. When I heard about Rapp being fired, I remembered the post directly, more than a month after you had written it.

I'm not here to gloat, and not even to shift blame and point that many fingers, so forgive me if I'm not writing up two hundred lines of "traces to gamergate supporters". Identifying the core agitators is difficult, there sadly are all too many, the literal Nazis loved the whole idea too damn much. However, I have personally only stumbled on this controversy in the context of gamergate, the websites supportive of the movement and above all: this thread. When harassment increased, I got troubling info from some twitter accounts I follow, those which watched the growing abuse on Rapp's account.

If you followed my posts before, also and especially in different parts of the forum and unrelated to gamergate, I have a very strict stance on harassment and the modes by which harassment is sparked and organized in internet forums. I saw a whole lot of warning signs right here in the "#Gamergate news thread". And I think you did, as well. :|

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YaTEdiGo: now I have really clear what were been your opinion if Mrs Rapp were been Mr. Rapp
Well, certainly there would be more positive bias, but he would have to love me back and marry me eventually.

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Shadowstalker16: Quoted so everyone can read.
Thanks. The post deserves it.
Post edited March 31, 2016 by Vainamoinen
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Brasas: So... the medium article reads like a hit piece. Is it one?

In the comments that feeling dissipates. The reporting author clearly says they are linking the source material (which I had wondered about - it's source #4) and they imply or outright say the original author is defiending that CP should be legal. They seem convinced of it.

Reading the source material however, reveals a more nuanced picture:
- For one, the original author seems to be more focused on things like Anime and Manga.
- When considering "actual" CP she makes it clear near the end that she does not defend its creation or distribution. Only possession.
- She also makes it clear her defense of possession is more akin to depenalization rather than actual legalization.

This is basically a similar approach to others in the area of drug use. Heal the addict / user rather than jailing them. Somewhat legitimize usage of drugs in order to have clarity on the problem rather than keep it hidden. Continue to repress and jail drug traffickers and drug producers.

There are issues with these approaches, but after having read so far - and I was not exhaustive - I see the reporting author as likely dishonest - to me this was a hit piece, motivated by god knows what. I don't think they could have missed these nuances / context accidentally, since they actually linked the source materials and seem to have familiarity with it. Alternatively it is possible they were blinded by righteousness without any bad faith...

So to me this is a perfect example of the kind of lying by omission that anti GG usually does, but apparently on the GG side. Of course I have no idea - and it really does not matter - what any of these peopel feel about GG, in fact the position the original author takes against censorship of Japanese games would seem to align with the GG one.
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Shadowstalker16: Quoted so everyone can read.
Great
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Vainamoinen: Well, then trust me when I don't quote either. Also, I still have a little trouble linking anywhere, but that shouldn't be much of a problem. :)

More slanderous articles about Rapp can e.g. be found on thegg.net. I've criticised their stuff in quite some detail in this thread. Page 340, February 22nd, so yes, it's old, almost as old as the ongoing harassment. Naive as I am, I expected that at least this strong stance against the organized harassment and frivolous slander would get a few upvotes.

The next page, p. 341 has Brasas' response that I quoted, between five of your posts on the same page. You MUST have seen it. The warnings that this would escalate were many, and if you followed my posting history – I evidently only post in this thread when shit gets really really real, for obvious reasons. :(

To my knowledge, Rapp has not supported real life sexual contact between minors and adults. All I'm seeing brought up is a single tweet nebulously challenging our preconceptions in that respect. Before someone gives me a much clearer, much more direct and entirely different link to respective Alison Rapp's musings, I will treat the accusation as slander.

@YaTEdiGo: Don't call people "SJW". It's a modern concept of the Untermensch, therewith unacceptably abusive, and we've just had an impressive demonstration as to how utterly meaningless it is as a supposedly descriptive noun. You're seeing a few things in the present fiasco very clear. It would be great if you applied the same kind of reasoning to the way you treat GOG forum members.
Found the pro pedo posts and she seems to be what you describe her to be. Doesn't seem to be supporting anything outright either. Here it is : http://imgur.com/a/uGLHz

''SJW'' isn't the only one. Many words have lost their meanings and please be more thoughtful about using words like ''abusive''. Everything mildly hurtful isn't worth calling the worst of the worst.

As to the AR thing, it seems to be that some GGers supported the campaign which was started by the Wayne Foundation and Nintendo fired her. I can't say if those 8 GGers who took part posted the not as good as claimed evidence and that got her fired or whether it was something posted by the others from GGR or nonGGers. So I will admit GG may have played at least a small part in this woman losing her job. I say this because the campaign wasn't started by GG and GG didn't start a similar campaign if opinion was so unanimous that she was worth ''telling'' on. I see this situation as the absolute worst GG could have done and assume the official statements to be false.

So I personally admit that I think some GGers went rogue here, and did harm. However, I still don't understand the blame being placed solely on GG or not considering the fact that Nintendo could see her tweet history and seen it as a liability (even despite of her more ''moderate'' views). And I certainlly will say the many articles blaming GG for most of this are demonizing as well.

EDIT: since we seem to be on quite a respectable stretch, I'd like to remind everyone from now on to post any info on previous posts they're referring to so its easier to find. Don't pretend like you haven't searched on this site and don't know what its like.
Post edited March 31, 2016 by Shadowstalker16
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Vainamoinen: snip
Thanks. No need to apologize, though I appreciate the intent. Even if "calling me" brings negative attention to me, I chose to participate in this public forum and will deal with it I guess. Like you when I post in this thread I know what I'm getting into. And you are right I sometimes try to jump in quixotically when I think things are going off track.

If it was not clear earlier, I respect your desire for justice and protecting the "weak". I disagree with some (who am I kidding... with a lot) of it as it relates to disincentivizing individual responsibilty - a common difference of opinion between let's say libertarians and socialists. I never lose sight of the fact that this protective instinct of ours is always and inherently paternalistic, whereas my judgement is you (and socialists in general) believe the authoritarianism can be easily divorced from the intent.

And I do think you turn a blind eye to similar dynamics on your side. I can bring a very personal example up and remind you I was softly mobbed and then banned in a certain forum for trying to point how a news article was similarly a hit piece - better documented surely, but equally lying by omission and with a clear framing intent to demonize someone by the reporter - in fact if instead of a reporter it would have been law enforcement involved some of the actions I recall would border on entrapment. But that's old news, I'm just trying to shock you into broadening perspectives.

As to GG involvement in this topic, don't mistake my questions for a statement of purity of GG. Need I remind you I often pointed out I do not consder myself part of GG? Heck, if there was one thing that personally made me almost join the movement was the aforementioned ban. I mean why suffer the consequences in reputation without any of the benefits? I am nothing if not a "rational agent" in economic terms.

Anyway I am certain there are some linkages between GG and harassment in this particular, but how relevant they are I certainly wonder. For example I think you see hate where more charitably there is rather fear and you see coordination where there is only emergence. Let me point out for example, that as a consequence of that same post of mine Leonardo admitted his motivation. And rather than malice it was clearly distrust. Your honest opinion if the demonization of gamer identity contributed to that trust gap? Hmmm?

To your credit, in more ingroupy places like the abovementioned forum, I see you sometimes trying to point out to others tha they are suffering from some of these same issues of unwarranted demonization of enemies, of confirmation bias, etc... which is why I shifted attitudes to you somewhat by the way... I mean, can you imagine the minds blown over here, if I were to post some of the critiques (too charitable IMO but still critiques) I saw you make about FF?

As to you and me personally, to round out this rapprochement. In this occasion I don't see you gloating, but I recall occasions where I am very sure you were gleeful and it was very, very offputting. I'm not perfect and neither are you, and I believe I have more recently cooled off somewhat towards you and tried to at least be positive when I see the opportunity. At some cost might I add, some friends of mine dislike you more than me let's say - and not without reason IMO - and as usual my trying to be in the middle, fair and true to myself and how I see things only gets me more isolated, whereas obviously what I desire is the opposite.

Over and out.
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Upvoted a few posts in here. What a beautiful Thursday.

I certainly won't be around for much longer, but a good note to skedaddle on may be this: I don't care who's responsible, I don't care who's taking the blame. The only important thing is to learn from this huge mess, and to make sure that it doesn't happen again. To maybe go back to the articles, websites or forum posts that first confronted one with this strange and hateful line of reasoning, and analyse when and why it clicked, and how it came to one's individual, possibly contributing reaction.

/edit: Jim Sterling on Nintendo's corporate culture. It's all SFGG, as far as I can tell, he never even mentions the term gamergate. There IS a thing or two in there concerning the enemy concept "SJW" though.
Post edited March 31, 2016 by Vainamoinen
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Djaron: anyway of course miss rapp is completely free to express her opinions, take shots of her in lingerie, having pro-pedophilia/child pornography speech as a citizen...
This thread is severely lacking source atm.

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Shadowstalker16: Nintendo in its official statement given to IGN said that her firing didn't have anything to do with the controversy : https://archive.is/PFgIN
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Shadowstalker16: Found the pro pedo posts and she seems to be what you describe her to be. Doesn't seem to be supporting anything outright either. Here it is : http://imgur.com/a/uGLHz
Well, at least some source was provided, thanks. Now about the lingerie shots... ;)

All I have to say about this:
I'm sorry for her to have lost her job and hope it wasn't about an opinion (that's why I could never be a PR worker). It seems to be because of contract shenanigans due to multiple jobs, at least that's the official statement from Nintendo.

I'm not interested in the whole #GG vs. #anti-GG thing anymore since I've seen witch hunts from both sides by now, but still read this thread for links to news and proof, so please less arguing and more source.
Post edited March 31, 2016 by Klumpen0815
I knew there was some controversy about the low quality "translation" of the new Fire Emblem games, and rightfully so, but I didn't knew it had turned into such an ugly mess.

Personally I despise this whole "somebody said/did/support something I don't like/disagree with; he/she has to shamed/fired/etc...!", regardless of which "side" does it and which "side" is on the receiving side of it; it's part of this silly "outrage culture" we live in and a big part of my strong "dislike" for any sort of social networks.

Now concerning the "translation" itself of the recent Fire Emblem games, based on what I read it's probably the most awful adaptation in recent memories, even without taking into account the censoring, and those really responsible for it should ashamed for it on a professional level. (again it's doesn't means that it's ok to "personally" attack them, insult them or ask for them to be fired,etc... ) I find it pretty sad that even in 2016 this kind of low quality localization and still exists. (But then again as long as Nintendo is involved I am not too surprised.)
Post edited March 31, 2016 by Gersen
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Gersen: Now concerning the "translation" itself of the recent Fire Emblem games, based on what I ream it's probably the most awful adaptation in recent memories, even without taking into account the censoring, and those really responsible for it should ashamed for it on a professional level. (again it's doesn't means that it's ok to "personally" attack them, insult them or ask for them to be fired,etc... ) I find it pretty sad that even in 2016 this kind of low quality localization and still exists. (But then again as long as Nintendo is involved I am not too surprised.)
Yeah, from what I have seen, it seems to be one of the most abysmal translations of all time, but it seems as though she wasn't even involved in the process, can somebody explain, what exactly was her involvement in this "translation"?
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Darvond: Unless you're a dog breeder or an astronomer. I did see a picture of her posting in a bed in lingerie with a Nintendo product. But if I were Nintendo, and not an obstinately conservative company that doesn't realize that kids don't have two quarters to rub between their fingers, I'd realize that this picture could do the company image a lot of good. An adult, willing to be seen with one of their own products, in a photoshoot.

Of course this company is also tone deaf, seeing as they have a game where the objective is to make clothing explode off of anime girls and a waifu dating simulator disguised as a tactical strategy RPG.
Do you mean these?
, [url=http://heavy.com/tech/2016/03/alison-rapp-photos-pictures-twitter-facebook-instagram-gamergate-fired-statement/9]2, 3

Maybe they were more concerned about these:
, [url=http://heavy.com/tech/2016/03/alison-rapp-photos-pictures-twitter-facebook-instagram-gamergate-fired-statement/5]2, 3

It's something Disney would be upset about and Nintendo is somewhat in the same ballpark.
Post edited March 31, 2016 by Klumpen0815
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Klumpen0815: Yeah, from what I have seen, it seems to be one of the most abysmal translations of all time, but it seems as though she wasn't even involved in the process, can somebody explain, what exactly was her involvement in this "translation"?
I haven't "followed" the whole story; but given that she apparently was a PR person I doubt she had anything to do with the translation or even enough "power" to influence it.

If I had to make a wild guess (again, I don't know, it's pure speculation) I would suspect it's probably some PR damage control tweet/post that got her under the fire.
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Klumpen0815: Yeah, from what I have seen, it seems to be one of the most abysmal translations of all time, but it seems as though she wasn't even involved in the process, can somebody explain, what exactly was her involvement in this "translation"?
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Gersen: I haven't "followed" the whole story; but given that she apparently was a PR person I doubt she had anything to do with the translation or even enough "power" to influence it.

If I had to make a wild guess (again, I don't know, it's pure speculation) I would suspect it's probably some PR damage control tweet/post that got her under the fire.
She had a campaign ran against her on twitter, probably because of her ''support'' of pedophilia (but all evidence seems to points out that she was just in favor of less penalties for CP possession and also some kind of teen sexuality supporter; which is very moderate considering the pedo advocates out there). It was started by the Wayne Foundation and had some gator participants, which the last little discussion was about.