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Krypsyn: EBWOP - and I only needed a minute more before I would have gottne my correction up on time. Thanks Sage103082. ;)

Erp, no... RWarehall didn't die in a fire. I meant dedoporno, obviously. *bonks self on the head*

Now I get to wait for the forum timer to tick down. At least this time, you guys won't be spammed by You-Tube links during this time.

Instead, umm... *sigh* fine...

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trentonlf: @Krypsyn, care to elaborate on RWarehall? I'm still not sure where you are seeing a scum tell.
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Krypsyn: I just didn't like the way he acted all of Day 1. He tended to sit on the sidelines with opinoins, always giving himself a way out. And, he was very careful to never to come after me with anything that might resemble an OMGUS post. In fact, towards the end, I sensed he was trying to subtly buddy up to me. It just seemed like he was trying too hard to not make anyone notice him too hard, or nail him down later on anything firm stance. You guys can buy it, or not, but it is just the overall feeling of his posts. Perhaps I am misreading him, it has happened before.

Yeesh, that only took 5 minutes?

What else, what else.. okay.. sure, why not? It has to do with RWarehall after all.

@Sage103082
I don't think RWarehall meant anything by that zombie thing. He was making a joke about movies in general, most likely. When I mentioned zombies, it was me adding silly context that was nowhere in my PM. I suppose RWarehall could have been breadcrumbing, but I wouldn't read too much into the zombie thing just because I used the same word.
I understand what you mean by saying RWarehall sitting back and trying to not to get noticed and leaving himself a way out. It's the same thing I see with Cristi. I will have to reevaluate the posts of RWarehall now too.
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trentonlf: I understand what you mean by saying RWarehall sitting back and trying to not to get noticed and leaving himself a way out. It's the same thing I see with Cristi. I will have to reevaluate the posts of RWarehall now too.
Hate to say it T, but this does sound like wiggling right now.
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trentonlf: I understand what you mean by saying RWarehall sitting back and trying to not to get noticed and leaving himself a way out. It's the same thing I see with Cristi. I will have to reevaluate the posts of RWarehall now too.
Yes. Cristigale was also on my list at the end of Day 1 of people I would consider voting for. Along with CSPVG, dedoporno, and RWarehall.

There is another name I left off that list: Agentcarr16. I left him of the list because I just don't like to vote for new players on the first Day (or NK them at Night as scum, if it can be helped). However, he also seemed rather scummy to me on Day 1. He just struck me as a little to pro-active (possibly 'jumpy' is a better word?). He stretched quotes and such just a tad too much to make points, and dismissed certain other posts a little too quickly. It could just be first time jitters/excitement, but it pinged my scumdar a bit.
Recap: noticeably misquote

I asked Trent why he hammered without waiting for a claim. He said:
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trentonlf: I did not expect a claim so it did not cross my mind to wait for one. The only way someone should expect a claim is if they know the person being lynched will flip town. If this had been a game of no flips why would scum give a claim and if they did why woul it be an honest one? Doesn't matter as we are getting flips anyway.
I replied:
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cristigale: I agree that in terms of consequences it doesn't matter now. We received the information, but you could not have known that when you voted. I also agree that scum would not provide a claim or an honest one. However, not providing the opportunity to claim on Day One, the day we are most likely to mis-fire, seems a bit scummy.
He replied:
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trentonlf: So you are saying that I should have let Bookwyrm claim no matter what. Not knowing before hand if we are going to get flips or not. So if we had no flips whatever info Bookwyrm gave us we had to take at face value? The person that was just lynched for being a possible scum. So that would mean no matter what info Bookwyrm had given us it would have to be considered tainted info if there had been no flips.

I will say again, the only reason someone should expect a claim from someone else when they are lynched is if they know said person will flip town. So how did you know he would flip town? You voted for him too. Sounds like to me you are reaching here and just trying to find something "scummy".
(emphasis added)

Trent stated very clearly that there was only one time to expect a claim. When a veteran player makes a strong statement about the way things work in mafia and it doesn’t gel with my experience, I’ll ask for verification. It is starting to feel like Trent made a mistake with the hammer and is now trying to cover for it.

I reply :
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cristigale: Yes, in my limited experience, a player should be given the chance to claim. If I am incorrect in that assumption, I hope others will correct me. If they do, I'll apologize and move on. You're reacting to this stronger than I expected. If no one corrects me, this raises more suspicion.

I voted for Bookwyrm because I thought there was a decent chance he was scum. I was wrong.
Trent responds:
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trentonlf: At least you made me laugh reading your post. There is no strong reaction on my part. You said me not giving Bookwyrm a chance to claim was scummy and I gave my reasons why it was not. When I gave my answer you said "However, not providing the opportunity to claim on Day One, the day we are most likely to mis-fire, seems a bit scummy."
I replied with the exact same reason I gave the first time on my reason why.

Now you are saying "in my limited experience", that is the part that made me laugh. You are an extremely smart player and usually need no help from others to see what is going on. Even you saying that if no one else corrects you on what I stated about someone claiming it raises more suspicions about me had me chuckling.

I think your play is off, you seem to be trying to make something out of nothing. Maybe you and bler144 are working together on this one or something. He votes for me and gives no reasons and you come in saying I look scummy on poor reasoning. You're too strong a player for "my limited experience" to hold water.

Vote cristigale
He goes on the defense more than I would expect from town. Clearer over-reaction. Votes.

My reply:
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cristigale: I have played two games and watched one. Before I joined the first game, I skimmed another. So yes, compared to you, I have limited experienced. If you are correct about not allowing players to claim, then I want to know. If not, it's now clear where my vote goes.
(emphasis added)

That last sentence was an over-reaction on my part. While I did want to know if there is typical protocol for claiming/hammering, I would not vote for trent just because he didn’t follow said protocol. I will, however, vote for him based on his reactions and play since then. His seem more reactive than I would expect from town. He is also making slips:

JMich either caught him in a lie or selective memory:
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trentonlf: Why people insist on referring to previous games to say someone is scum or acting scummy in this one is beyond me. We are not playing any previous game, this is not forum mafia now and in the past.
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JMich: Where did I do that? I only pointed out that you were in games when people asked for claims, even though you claimed otherwise. Sure, it could be faulty memory, or it could be scum trying to cover a slip up.
Later he (intentionally?) misquoted me to make a point:
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trentonlf: It's funny I gave my reasons for lynching Bookwyrm and hammered so I'm being seen as scum for it. Yet, flub voted for no real reason other than to avoid a no lynch because of a deadline that was never given, JMich voted just to prove Yogs wrong, and Cristi voted just because she felt Bookwyrm was being a distraction. Any of these getting second looks? No, because people keep making a weak argument about my hammer and that's it.
(emphasis added)

That was not “just” why I voted. I clearly stated that was a secondary reason here:
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cristigale: Bookwyrm – I am placing my vote, at least initially, with Bookwyrm. Primarily, I think it’s possible that this is Book’s first time as scum. The over-the-top antics were purposeful. I lean toward him playing this as scum and not town. Secondary, if he is town, for me personally, his play (at least to this point) has done more harm than good. An analogy comes to mind: You’re driving a car and trying to keep your eyes on the road. Plays like Kryspn’s in general or JMich’s vote might turn my head to the side momentarily, but I still have the road partly-to-mostly in view. With Bookwyrm, I’m turning around to see what’s behind me, I do not see where I should be looking because of the distraction.
(emphasis added)

And in a direct reply to Trent, I stated this:
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trentonlf: I voted for Bookwyrm because I thought there was a decent chance he was scum. I was wrong.
Trent’s play feels defensive, he either lied or has selective memory, and he is misquoting. This seems more like scum than town.

Vote: trentonlf
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flubbucket: Oh, did I say scummy??
I assume that when you find something 'troubling' and 'needing further explanation' enough to vote for the something, that means that it's scummy.

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yogsloth: Lots of true stuff
Wow... It really looks pretty bad when you put it like that. Although you are ignoring a few of my posts, but anyway. I'll get around to it :P

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Krypsyn: There is another name I left off that list: Agentcarr16. I left him of the list because I just don't like to vote for new players on the first Day (or NK them at Night as scum, if it can be helped). However, he also seemed rather scummy to me on Day 1. He just struck me as a little to pro-active (possibly 'jumpy' is a better word?). He stretched quotes and such just a tad too much to make points, and dismissed certain other posts a little too quickly. It could just be first time jitters/excitement, but it pinged my scumdar a bit.
Hmmm... This is not looking good. I'm trying to be as even-handed as possible, but I do tend to read a lot into posts. Maybe too much.

Oh, and welcome back Krypsyn. Please, just don't come too close. The blood makes me a little queasy :)

Alrighty... The Bookwyrm627 Wagon. Let's see what WIFOM we can draw from this :)

Our first vote for Bookwyrm is trentonlf, in Post 10 . This is an RVS vote.

However, trent switches his vote to yogsloth in Post 53 for, what else, role-talk.

Then, in Post 106 , he switches back to Bookwyrm, because of his 'a townie and me' phrase.

Next vote is yogsloth, in Post 193 . Unfortunately, yogsloth doesn't use the 'standard' reason, of Bookwyrm's bizarre posting, but pulls out three other reasons, none of which hold water. This is a little strange, and something that sets of little flashing red lights for yogsloth.

Third vote was me, just before my vacation. I really just wanted to place a vote, anywhere, so I felt OK about being gone for two days. Bookwyrm was the most suspicious player.

Fourth vote is JMich, and this vote caused a bit of an uproar. As I read it, he placed it to 'test' yogsloth's intuition. Several people found it a sneakily scummy way to place a vote without any fanfare. Now, we see how yogsloth's intuition paid off, so it will be interesting to see how JMich reacts.

Now we have trentonlf jumping off the wagon, and attacking JMich for his flimsy reasoning, bringing us back to three votes.

Second fourth vote placed was cristigale, with her primary reasoning being that Bookwyrm's play seemed to be like that of a first-time scum. Her second reason was that even if Bookwyrm WAS town, his play wasn't being helpful. Bookwyrm flipped town, but with hindsight I'm starting to see that his play may have been very useful.

CSPVG was the fifth vote, and he gives no reasons for switching from Sage. I would assume it's just because of the wagon forming.

Now, I come back from vacation, and unvote Bookwyrm, because, as stated above, I placed my vote in a hurry and hadn't made a thorough analysis.

Sage comes onto the wagon for the second fifth vote, because of the confusion that his plan caused. *Standard Reason*

RWarehall makes the sixth vote, on the reasoning that he thinks Bookwyrm slipped and is now trying to cover. Problem is that Bookwyrm hasn't actually been trying to cover all that much, he's really been sitting back and letting this go where it will.

Flubbucket brings the seventh vote, with the stated reason of avoiding No-Lynch.

And trentonlf returns to hammer, missing JMich's request for a claim before the hammer. He was on the wagon earlier, and returns because he's 'still not sold on you being town Bookwyrm'.


We had a several weak votes, mine included, and a few votes that appear scummy, but Bookwyrm definitely created a problem with his badly scummy play. I do have some ideas as to who might be scum, and I will be exploring those a bit further in my next post.

lol, I'm doing it again.
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trentonlf: I understand what you mean by saying RWarehall sitting back and trying to not to get noticed and leaving himself a way out. It's the same thing I see with Cristi. I will have to reevaluate the posts of RWarehall now too.
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yogsloth: Hate to say it T, but this does sound like wiggling right now.
There is no wiggling, I said the ecxadt same thing in post 806 to Ibler
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/mafia_28_everyday_life_in_grand_oak_gallows/post806

I said Cristi was trying to leave herself a way out by deferring to the "more experienced" players so she could change her mind if no one jumped on it. All it was saying to Krypsyn is I did not see that with RWarehall before and now I will have to reevaluate his posts.
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Krypsyn: he was very careful to never to come after me with anything that might resemble an OMGUS post. In fact, towards the end, I sensed he was trying to subtly buddy up to me.
Ironically he came after me when I gave some inclination of backing off on him. He questioned my accusation but never counter-voted on me til I dropped him. His most substantial post thus far is probably #553, no?

His critique of my voting style up until that point is actually fair in retrospect, particularly if he's considering it in conjunction with my prior early votes on Kryp (certainly a circus) and Sage, the latter of which was a pointed critique of the fact that no one was voting seriously, so why should I? Which he doesn't specifically say, but I'd buy that it probably informed his point, especially if he's one of the folks struggling to keep up with the verbosity a few of us pile on the table.

In any case, anyone wanting to make a case for/against RW probably has to start with that post, right? Though I do think he's someone we probably do need to see more of and he could be lurking for other reasons besides scumminess, RL/boredom/otherwise.

He does cast some FoS on dedo, which is interesting in restrospect - could be distancing but at that point there didn't seem any need to distance, was there? Could have gotten just as much saying something noncommittal. What are the odds dedo turns up dead scum on N1? The other people he could be seen as distancing from would be me, wyrm, sage, jmich, yog which headcount-wise just doesn't add up as a ploy.

He seems to compliment trent/cristi/CSP, which at first I took as a statement that he thought they were pro-town, but reading more carefully he seems to avoid committing to that and purely as a comment on their contributions, nothing about guilt or otherwise.

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Krypsyn: General Question: Would anyone be interested in sharing more of their PM flavour? Yogsloth shared his, as did bler,
I would say that any comment I made about PM flavour in Day 1 is probably not to be taken too seriously. Most people have probably figured out that ERP Fanatic was pretty unlikely as an actual role. Do I have a brother in the game or was that pretty clearly a joke? Though as weird as this game has been, who knows. Likewise, who knows how honest Yog was either.

But no, I'm not in favor of sharing PMs at this point, even if I'm not offended you asked.


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Krypsyn: Or is there another option I haven't thought of?
There is another option. One I thought was quite obvious, though I could be assigning a gambit to Trent that he didn't actually consider. Also, whether it's exculpatory or not is open, since I think it's 80% a scum play, but if I'm wrong, I'm really wrong. Which is part of why I'd prefer we move off of hammering Trent on this single question of why he hammered and at least consider other options, really, even if that means me, for 24 hours.

I don't think we're going to learn much more about Trent's action. So I think he's right that it's a distraction, even if he keeps contributing to it by responding. Then again, he's the one with his back against the wall, so I can see why he may not want to risk not responding. But if you look at the late votes on wyrm I really don't think they tell us much because they're pretty lazy "What he said" add-ons or rehashing points that had been made 48 hours earlier.

I'd prefer that not happen again.
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trentonlf: There is no wiggling, I said the ecxadt same thing in post 806 to Ibler


I said Cristi was trying to leave herself a way out by deferring to the "more experienced" players so she could change her mind if no one jumped on it. All it was saying to Krypsyn is I did not see that with RWarehall before and now I will have to reevaluate his posts.
You did?

Given that cristi's wagon has exactly zero chance of rolling today, and yours is flying down the tracks, but RW's wagon has a chance to pick up steam, what do you suppose you'd bet you'll find once you "evaluate" his posts?
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CSPVG: General Question: Would anyone be interested in sharing more of their PM flavour? Yogsloth shared his, as did bler, and of course so did I. The world hasn't imploded, and quite frankly I think that yog may be onto something with his 'piecing things together' talk.
First CSPVG asked this not Krypsyn. I know mistakes are made but it seems to be happening a lot in the game (the misquoting)

As of right now I do not think it is wish to share them. I would like more time to see how today goes before going back to thinking about this.
Had an awful time getting that to post. The first line should read:
Recap: (warning - long wall of text)

I also intended to use “misreport” instead of “misquote” at the end, as Trent was technically not quoting. Some sort of mistake using spell check and thesaurus.
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yogsloth: You did?

Given that cristi's wagon has exactly zero chance of rolling today, and yours is flying down the tracks, but RW's wagon has a chance to pick up steam, what do you suppose you'd bet you'll find once you "evaluate" his posts?
No idea, I have not looked yet. Should I say "I bet I find he looks scummy after all!" just so I can switch my vote to him? Maybe I would if I was scum looking for a way out, but since I actually want to find scum and not just cast a vote to cast a vote I can not say what I will find until I actually go back over his posts.
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agentcarr16: Alrighty... The Bookwyrm627 Wagon. Let's see what WIFOM we can draw from this :)
We had a several weak votes, mine included, and a few votes that appear scummy, but Bookwyrm definitely created a problem with his badly scummy play. I do have some ideas as to who might be scum, and I will be exploring those a bit further in my next post.

lol, I'm doing it again.
See I am not to keen on this.

You post the same thing I did about the wagon votes but where I left each players own words speak for their reasons you do not.
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CSPVG: My vote on Leonard remains for the time being. While I understand that he hasn't had much time to post, I still feel that the contributions he has made have been of little value.
What? Why I ought a… How could… Can't believe … You must be… Ya ok, probably right.

I'm still thinking about the whole fireman/arsonist thing. I'm wondering if maybe the arsonist is a third team, against both town and scum. Perhaps trying to kill all the property owners? Anyway, that might explain the mafia firefighter, there's probably also a town one. The arsonist might be compulsive as well. Heck, might even be more than one of 'em. It could explain the apparently high number of doctors (ya, two is high IMO) since there might be so many deaths at night. Does this matter at all really? I'm not sure.
Forum software is glitching up. I hope I don't lose this. Anyway, short player reads. These are totally based on current gut feelings, not on specific analysis. And I'm ordering them by the order in the OP. (That's the Opening Post, correct?)

Rating System: ranging from 1-10, with 1 being DEFINITELY scum, and 10 being DEFINITELY town.

bler144 – 7 – Did a lot of strange stuff on the first day, but seems to be contributing more 'townily' lately.

Cristigale – 8 – Contributes irregularly (kind of like me :), but has good content.

CSPVG – 6 – Power-lurking, but has done nothing overtly scummy.

Flubbucket – 4 – Maybe this is OMGUS, but I don't like the reasons that he's providing for his votes.

JMich – 5 – Seems to have spent most of his time involved in little scraps with other players. His Bookwyrm vote was very weak.

Leonard – 5 – Power-lurking, basically no content as of yet.

RWarehall – 5 – Krypsyn sees something scummy in him, and he doesn't seem to be providing much content. However, I can't see what Krypsyn sees, though to tell the truth, I haven't gone looking yet. RWarehall needs a lot more analysis.

Sage – 4 – She seems to be doing too little. She's posting fairly regularly, but she seems to only be asking questions of others. She has put up two posts on the wagon, but they were pretty much just a collection of quotes. Something's off, and I need to put a little more time into analyzing her as well

trentonlf – 5 – I really don't like his over-the-top defense of his claimless hammer.

yogsloth – 6 – I'm leaning towards town for now, but it's pretty much on the basis of one post.

By the way, I have long posts on two specific players, but they were written during Night 1, so they may not be completely relevant anymore. Do people want me to post them now, or go back and update them? It might take me a while to update them :)
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Krypsyn: .
I went back over every post or RWarehall's and I'm sorry Krypsyn I just don't see it still. If I'm wrong on this one you can rub my face in it later, but I can't really vote for RW as I think he really is town.

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