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LootHunter: Actually, that's not entirely true. Witchers at Kaer Morhen didn't subject her to "Trial of Grasses" yes, but they did fed her some mashrooms and potions. In fact Triss had a serious talk about that with Geralt.
True, but that's a far fetch from genetic mutation which kills 8 out of 10 and leave halve of the survivors with permanent defects... What they tried was "mild doping".
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dtgreene: Could you please point out where I mentioned that particular game?
You didn't. But you literally said that for author being consistent about the world is less important than not joking about sex change. Well, the Baldur's Gate is prime example how the former approach makes ineresting characters and funny stories and latter makes crappy characters and ruins "suspension of disbelief"/
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dtgreene: Whether one of them is a superhuman mutant is irrelevant to the point I am making,

Also, there's no particular reason the author couldn't have made Ciri the mutant and not Geralt; it wouldn't be any less realistic that way.
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toxicTom: So you just didn't read the books.

Yes, per Sapkowski Witchers were men. Boys who underwent mutations which only a few of them ever survived could become Witchers. The "inventors" never cared to create a female version of the "Trial of the Grasses", and why would they. Men are on average better fighters thean women. That's simply a fact. Additionally men are a "disposable" resource. One man can impregnate any number of women depending on his stamina. A woman can be pregnant - maybe once year (which is counting high...). And Witchers are infertile....

When Geralt took to Ciri back to Kaer Morhen to train her... yes, some Witchers were not amused, but on the whole they were very accepting. That's tolerance put to real life. And no wonder - they are outcasts themselves, seen as killing machines and "tools", to be discarded and driven away ASAP when the dirty work was done.
I haven't read the books or played the games; that's true. However. there is no reason that a fantasy world has to work any particular way.

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dtgreene: Could you please point out where I mentioned that particular game?
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LootHunter: You didn't. But you literally said that for author being consistent about the world is less important than not joking about sex change. Well, the Baldur's Gate is prime example how the former approach makes ineresting characters and funny stories and latter makes crappy characters and ruins "suspension of disbelief"/
To me, the way sex changes are handled in BG1 and BG2 is enough to ruin suspension of disbelief, and it does not make interesting characters. In fact, 2 of the 3 ways that sex changes can occur in the BG series aren't plot related and could be taken out without changing the plot. (For the method introduced with the ToB expansion, I would just replace that effect with something like a random alignment change.)

Anyway, I was actually thinking of the book Dealing with Dragons (by Patricia Wrede) as an example of a book that subverts gender roles in a manner that's quite enjoyable. The book starts with a princess running away and getting kidnapped by a dragon on purpose, and not wanting to be rescued by a prince. It's a fun read, and I recommend it, along with the other "with Dragons" books that she wrote.
Post edited June 03, 2018 by dtgreene
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toxicTom: So you just didn't read the books.

Yes, per Sapkowski Witchers were men. Boys who underwent mutations which only a few of them ever survived could become Witchers. The "inventors" never cared to create a female version of the "Trial of the Grasses", and why would they. Men are on average better fighters thean women. That's simply a fact. Additionally men are a "disposable" resource. One man can impregnate any number of women depending on his stamina. A woman can be pregnant - maybe once year (which is counting high...). And Witchers are infertile....

When Geralt took to Ciri back to Kaer Morhen to train her... yes, some Witchers were not amused, but on the whole they were very accepting. That's tolerance put to real life. And no wonder - they are outcasts themselves, seen as killing machines and "tools", to be discarded and driven away ASAP when the dirty work was done.
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dtgreene: I haven't read the books or played the games; that's true. However. there is no reason that a fantasy world has to work any particular way.
Seriously?! toxicTom like literally told you the reasons, why that particular fantasy world works that particular way.
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dtgreene: To me, the way sex changes are handled in BG1 and BG2 is enough to ruin suspension of disbelief, and it does not make interesting characters.
How exactly that ruins sod? If there are sex-changing spells and artifacts in the world, than people's attitude to the change of sex would be exactly like in BG1&2. Not like "parents thought I was a boy, but I refused to accept that" whining in Dragonspear. If you want to change your sex in D&D world - you just go, find magic and that's all. In fact that kind of quest would make an interesting backstory for a character, but instead players got some person babbling how she made her name out of sounds or whatever.
Post edited June 03, 2018 by LootHunter
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dtgreene: Anyway, I was actually thinking of the book Dealing with Dragons (by Patricia Wrede) as an example of a book that subverts gender roles in a manner that's quite enjoyable. The book starts with a princess running away and getting kidnapped by a dragon on purpose, and not wanting to be rescued by a prince.
And? You haven't told me anything that would capture my interest. Why a princess thinks that living with dragon is better than with prince?
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kohlrak: ....
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toxicTom: Do you eat dog, or do you eat dogs... and "dogs" probably have names, which makes them "harder to eat". See "objectification" ;-)
Bingo, you got it.
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badon: I'm a scientific thinker. An engineering thinker. Fantasy doesn't make sense to me, so I have trouble suspending disbelief, and as a consequence I don't enjoy fantasy genre as much as normal people do. That said, fantasy movies work well for me because then I don't have to try to imagine it "from scratch" in my own mind, like would with a book. I read The Hobbit cover-to-cover and I had no idea what was going on throughout the whole thing. NONE of it made sense to me.

I have noticed lately that I'm reacting the same way to "sci"-fi. Where's the science in the sci-fi? Spaceships flying around like aircraft? It's all fake!

So, yeah, I'm missing out on some entertainment.
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dtgreene: Suggestion: Try looking for science fiction works that are written by actual scientists. For example, Carl Sagan wrote a novel called "Contact", which was later made into a movie. Try that novel/movie, or look for other such works written by scientists; they're more likely to be scientifically accurate. Maybe that will feel more real to you?
I have read the book Contact, and seen the movies. It's my favorite bit of sci-fi.
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dtgreene: Suggestion: Try looking for science fiction works that are written by actual scientists. For example, Carl Sagan wrote a novel called "Contact", which was later made into a movie. Try that novel/movie, or look for other such works written by scientists; they're more likely to be scientifically accurate. Maybe that will feel more real to you?
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badon: I have read the book Contact, and seen the movies. It's my favorite bit of sci-fi.
AMAZING BOOK.
The movie was good but I didn't like some of the changes. I realize they had to alter somethings because the book was over 1000 pages, but all together brilliant stuff from a brilliant mind who is and will be missed.

And to the point dt was trying to make, it's a very down to earth realistic scifi story. While I don't see us getting blue prints from outer space any time soon, it does such a great job of taking this extraordinary story and making it "real". Star Trek always dealt with real people and real emotions and real dilemmas, but at the end of the day they were still on a space ship going warp speed which accentuated the Fantasy over the Science in SciFi. Contact very much leans to the Science aspect of it, allowing for some Fantasy, but almost as just a garnish, not a main aspect or story point.
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Socratatus: Men are not only stronger, but even the smallest man has a greater muscle density and mass weight for weight than women. Men are also faster than women. There`s more, but I`ll leave you with that.

Ergo a warrior will always beat a woman in real combat.

I haven`t read the Witcher novels, but that is HIS fantasy world. From the game it`s not too bad, but I think that Ciri woman was a mistake.The series was good until she popped up with her super powers. She is too much like the Witcher and seems to me just a shoe horn for feminism- again. That said I haven`t completed the whole game, or book so maybe she`ll turn out less of a feminist character.
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toxicTom: That's IMO really bulllshit. The first part objectively is. Men have on average more muscle mass and density - yes. On average. Meaning there are a lot of women out there your will beat an average man is terms of power and speed any time.
That`s your opinion, but what I`ve said is fact. Fact doesn`t care about your opinion.

The only way a woman might beat a man is if she`s some kind of sports fanatic and the man sat on a coach all day, in other words he never exercises. Then she may out-run a man, she may even out strong arm a man. But there is a raft of evidence of even sports women unable to beat teenager sports boys in competition. There`s even footage of a muscle woman who was beaten by men who never took any steroids crap.

And that brings me to another point, the strongest, most athletic man will never be beaten by the strongest, most athletic woman, just as all average men, will beat all average women in any physical feat.

Feminism, and society`s attempts to please women, try to hide the truth. Stop believing lies. Look around you in the real world and observe with your eyes.

Fact, reality, truth. Deal with it.
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toxicTom: That's IMO really bulllshit. The first part objectively is. Men have on average more muscle mass and density - yes. On average. Meaning there are a lot of women out there your will beat an average man is terms of power and speed any time.
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Socratatus: Fact, reality, truth...as I see them. Deal with it.
FTFY :D
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Socratatus: That`s your opinion, but what I`ve said is fact. Fact doesn`t care about your opinion.
Sorry to be so blunt, but you're full of shit. It's you who should take a look at the real world and maybe learn at least the basics of statistics. Maybe start with bell curve and Gaussian distribution.

(Source)
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toxicTom: That's IMO really bulllshit. The first part objectively is. Men have on average more muscle mass and density - yes. On average. Meaning there are a lot of women out there your will beat an average man is terms of power and speed any time.
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Socratatus: That`s your opinion, but what I`ve said is fact. Fact doesn`t care about your opinion.

The only way a woman might beat a man is if she`s some kind of sports fanatic and the man sat on a coach all day, in other words he never exercises. Then she may out-run a man, she may even out strong arm a man. But there is a raft of evidence of even sports women unable to beat teenager sports boys in competition. There`s even footage of a muscle woman who was beaten by men who never took any steroids crap.

And that brings me to another point, the strongest, most athletic man will never be beaten by the strongest, most athletic woman, just as all average men, will beat all average women in any physical feat.

Feminism, and society`s attempts to please women, try to hide the truth. Stop believing lies. Look around you in the real world and observe with your eyes.

Fact, reality, truth. Deal with it.
There's women who have squated weights of 700lbs and women who have run 10.5 seconds for the 100m. Less than 0.1% of men will ever hit either of those marks.

The best men will beat the best women physically but the best women are still levels above the average man.

When it comes to fighting that is generally less so because of women's lesser bone density.
Post edited June 03, 2018 by supplementscene
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Socratatus: That`s your opinion, but what I`ve said is fact. Fact doesn`t care about your opinion.

The only way a woman might beat a man is if she`s some kind of sports fanatic and the man sat on a coach all day, in other words he never exercises. Then she may out-run a man, she may even out strong arm a man. But there is a raft of evidence of even sports women unable to beat teenager sports boys in competition. There`s even footage of a muscle woman who was beaten by men who never took any steroids crap.

And that brings me to another point, the strongest, most athletic man will never be beaten by the strongest, most athletic woman, just as all average men, will beat all average women in any physical feat.

Feminism, and society`s attempts to please women, try to hide the truth. Stop believing lies. Look around you in the real world and observe with your eyes.

Fact, reality, truth. Deal with it.
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supplementscene: There's women who have squated weights of 700lbs and women who have run 10.5 seconds for the 100m. Less than 0.1% of men will ever hit either of those marks.
0.1%? You are lying. I could ask you to post evidence, but there isn`t any. However there`s plenty of evidence of men being the strongest and fastest over women. And MOST men are stronger and faster than women. Exceptions are only as I explained above which you choose to ignore.

All these have been beaten by men. NO woman has ever matched the higheststrength/running feats of men.
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supplementscene: The best men will beat the best women physically but the best women are still levels above the average man.
This makes absolutely no sense and you are now just showing you`re a feminist who won`t accept reality.
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supplementscene: When it comes to fighting that is generally less so because of women's lesser bone density.
It is about strength, density, mass, mentality and thousands of years of genetics that enables men to be far superior in warfare than women. The evidence is before your eyes. Your cognitive dissonance is amazing.
Post edited June 03, 2018 by Socratatus
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Socratatus:
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supplementscene: When it comes to fighting that is generally less so because of women's lesser bone density.
Yes, but women have ways of getting around this.
Worst ass whooping I ever got was from a girl. There were big bad male bullies at my grade school but when they fought they did it to look good in front of their friends which meant more posing that anything else. When a woman fights she does it to win and doesn't care what she looks like. She will do anything and everything to kick your ass however unorthodox.
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supplementscene: When it comes to fighting that is generally less so because of women's lesser bone density.
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tinyE: Yes, but women have ways of getting around this.
Worst ass whooping I ever got was from a girl. There were big bad male bullies at my grade school but when they fought they did it to look good in front of their friends which meant more posing that anything else. When a woman fights she does it to win and doesn't care what she looks like. She will do anything and everything to kick your ass however unorthodox.
Just because you`re a weak ass guy who was too afraid to hit a girl doesn`t make women ass kickers.

I was bullied at school by a girl and the only reason she won was because I thought `you`re not supposed to hit a girl`. So I wouldn`t fight back.

I talked to my father about it and he said, "Don`t believe the crap they teach you; it makes you think you`re weak when you`re not. You are far stronger than her. If she starts again, slap her good on the face!"

Next day she started bullying me again. I slapped her hard on the face- She burst into tears and never again bullied me. She was bigger than me too.

I give my father`s advice to you. Stop being a weak pussy. You as a male are far stronger, but you`ve let yourself become mentally weak.
Post edited June 03, 2018 by Socratatus