The power curves are different between the classes.
* Fighter starts pretty strong, gets a huge bonus in the late single digits (or in the double digits, depending on skill) on getting an extra attack/swing, continues strong through the teens (particularly with the availability of strong weapons), amd remains strong through the end of the game.
* Bishop starts pretty weak, gets a decent boost when area spells start to appear, continues to grow decently through level 11 or so, but then offensive spells stagnate, except for the fact that your skills continue to improve and power cast enters the mix. This stagnation is apparent as you get to the 14-17 range, when your skills are quite good, and you're sill using 3rd and 4th level spells for the majority of your damage. (Either that, or your Bishop starts getting an extra attack and swing while hasted.) Then, bishops get another power boost as you get into the 20s, as 7th level spells become available.
* The curve I describe for bishops is actually even sharper for bards and gadgeteers. Characters of these classes are quite good when they first get their area attack items, then they get Heal All at level 11, but then their offensive capabilities really fall off as you go through the mid-teens. A level 17 bard doesn't have any good offensive options at that point, and a gadgeteer is only slightly better (Prismic Ray and Boiling Blood). But then there's a huge jump at level 18, provided you have certain items found in Rapax territory.

Some things that, I find, make healing more interesting:
* Damage is something that you pretty much do every round you're not doing something else; essentially, it's a default. Healing you only do when you choose to do it (excluding things like HP regen and the Vampire Chain).
* If you have a potentially long battle, and you have powerful but expensive options for damage and/or healing, if it's damage it generally makes sense to use it right away, whereas a similar healing ability should be saved until the time is right, which makes the strategy a lot more interesting.
* Outside of battle, damage plays no role, but healing does play a role.
* I find recoveries much more fun to watch than just doing raw damage. It's rather fun to see the player recovers from what appears to be a hopeless situation. (Note that this apples even for games that are not RPG-like; even in games like Tetris the Grand Master, recoveries are fun to watch, despite that the game's mechanics are completely different from those of Wizardry 8.)

I'm sorry about that last post. I was in the middle of a "perfect" battle in Arnika with 4 Savant Slashers and 5 Savant Gunners (the perfect 9, both for experience and training).
My neighbor was banging on the door, so of course, I had to let him in. I was in the middle of said battle, while he watched. I get irritated having to show off a battle to someone else, especially since he wasn't into W8. As soon as the battle ended, he proceeded to show me "his" good video games (which I'm not interested in), while I showed him a new W8 party at the beach, without saving of course (he was sort of impressed, but meh).
Being on the spectrum, I get very annoyed at being interrupted while I'm doing something. He did bring over food, but also, drank most of my beers, and he didn't leave until about 3 am, after my constant complaining. At that point, I was pretty drunk, and only managed one battle in Arnika after he left, before I saved and quit.
I feel like he stole my whole night of grinding (I did get food and companionship, which is good, right)? Who doesn't get mad when they feel like they've lost their house to a visitor?
Anyways, it's a good problem to have that I have 3 Staves of Doom, the Alchemist having been trained for it (maxed Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills).
The Psionic and Mage have been heavily working on it, in another lucky street fight in Arnika (4 Savant Slashers and 5 Savant Gunners, the lucky 9). I got Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills into the 60s (the most they can get is 2 swings per attack and 2 attacks per round, for now, unless I can get a few levels and get 3 swings per attack).
If I can manage 3 Staves of Doom, I can surely handle the Buccaneer Ghosts (getting Light Swords and Light Shields).

I'm currently using 3 extended range characters in the front line (ranger, valkyrie, and dwarf bishop), and I am really liking the setup. This party has, over the course of the game, proven to be quite versatile! (Not to mention changes in party balance, with melee being ideal in the rapax rift, and now the two stamina casters both have nukes.)

Currently saved after having obtained the Renaissance Lute.

Idea for a later run: A human (for stats; good for less typical stat distributions) valkyrie who goes str/int at level up. The idea is that:
* Artifacts would grow faster than with the Dracon, since int would be really high and sen wouldn't be quite as bad (useful because there are some aretifacts, like the Amulet of Life, that would be nice to give to a valkyire)
* Would get Power Cast at, I believe, level 15, making her spells stronger. (Remember that Power Cast affects more than just resistance piercing; it affects the magnitudes of many spells (including Heal All and Superman), as well as the durations of many spells (including Light and Armorplate)
* Wondering when this character would get an extra attack

(Mook might be another option; still gets Power Cast at a reasonable level, and can use the Giant Sword eventually. Then again, the GS isn't *necessary*, even if it is really good, and I note that this race/class combination starts as an apprentice.)

Honestly, I consider the Light Shield to be potentially gamebreaking because it provides so much more AC than other shields, and it comes at a point when party AC tends to be too high anyway.

Then again, I did give my elf bishop the Stealth Cape, which boosts AC by 5 on its own. (While I avoid using stealth classes, I don't have a problem with stealth equipment because it can be turned off by unequipping it, and there's no way to get stealth up to game-breaking levels this way.)

I have been in street-fights constantly, with melee enemies (Savant Guards, Troopers, Berserkers, Slashers). These are the only melee-only enemies that I can face, which will run up to the party and let the Psionic and Mage train their Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills, swinging with their Quarterstaves for mimimal damage.
Being a Human party, everybody has their stats up to par (the lowest stat that anybody has is 61).
This makes me believe that Humans are a way to make up for other races' bonuses in other games, similar to how more basic classes, like the Fighter, Rogue, Bard, and Gadgeteer, have been beefed up compared to their counterparts.
Edit: The Light Shield would be good for the Priest, Bard, and Gadgeteer, considering that they don't get the heavy armor of the Fighter, Lord, and Valkyrie.

The thing with humans, and that often puts them at a disadvantage, is these sorts of things:
* Humans don't have any stats that they are exceptional at. Given how min/maxing works, where you want high values of the stats most important to the role, but are willing to accept low (sometimes cripplingly low) values in stats that you don't care about. humans are sub-optimal for this purpose.
* Humans often don't have any special advantages, despite other races having them. (In Wizardry 8, this can be seen when you look at resistances.)

As a result, for humans to be a viable choice, from a min/max perspective, is that the developers need to include some reason to play as a human. For example:
* In AD&D, non-humans were given level limits. This is a very bad approach; at low levels, it means nothing, while at high levels it essentially means "you *must* play as a human or else your character is non-viable". (Case in point: Look at the recommended party for Pools of Darkness, the one AD&D CRPG where this issue is the most severe.) Even worse is that the actual level limits were only printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide, which players were not supposed to read back then, so they couldn't even try to avoid these limits.
* In D&D 3e, Humans get an extra feat, and an extra skill point per level. Quite often, when one wants to min/max a character in this system, feats can be at a premium (especially at lower levels), so this extra feat is definitely helpful, making humans a viable choice.
* Wizardry 8's approach, on the other hand, is to give them a higher stat sum. This makes humans particularly useful for builds that need lots of different stats (for example, class changed characters or cases like the battle bishop) or those that need stats that are perhaps atypical of their class (like how a human battle bishop can get Power Strike before 18 while still getting Power Cast at a reasonably early level 12).

By the way, on ideas for a later playthrough:
* I think I'll try a Dracon str/int Valkyire. My current Valkyrie is str/dex, and while str/int won't give her the extra attack as early, it should give her better Artifacts growth (great for using things like the Amulet of Life), and the expert skill for maxing intelligence can be useful (to the point where I may go for a party where *everyone* learns that skill).
* Human and Mook are also reasonable choices for str/int Valkyrie. Human gets better scores in the weaker stats (in particular, more Senses, which helps Artifacts growth), while Mook gets the Giant's Sword and has decent values in the stats I care about (at the cost of being an apprentice).
* I am liking my dwarf bishop, though I'm thinking I may try human for a str/int bishop in the future. Won't be as durable, but will at least get Power Cast at level 12 instead of 16, and Dexterity (and Speed) will be higher, which may help her get her second attack.
* On the other hand, I'm looking at a str/int elf priest. (This is for an MDP.)

My current save is inside Marten's Tomb, ready to get the Destinae Dominus. Marten's ghost knows a lot, and he's heard of Guardia. (Still feels ridiculous that Vi Domina acts like she hasn't heard of Guardia, despite having actually been there, assuming Wizardry 7 is canon.)

The Renaissance Lute would sometimes cure the insanity caused by the Destinae Dominus (while in party inventory), but not always. First time I've seen it *not* remove status, though the problem fixes itself after giving it to the character wearing the Helm of Serenity.

After getting the Destinae Dominus, only one artifact will be left, and that one is outright buyable.

(First time I got the Destinae Dominus, even though I've gotten as far as the Renaissance Lute, which isn't far from the DD.)

One more interesting data point: My elf bishop (with 120 speed) gets 2/2 swings with the Cat O' Nine Tails, so she can contribute a small amount of damage in melee, even without haste. My dwarf bishop still needs haste to go past 1/1 swings.

Edit: Bishops ready for level 17, and this is before the 400k XP reward for getting the Destinae Dominus.

I generally don't get the Destinae Dominus until at least the level 20s, and even then, it better be a very good party. The "normal" way to do things would be to get the Astral Dominae (by force or by money), and Chaos Moliri first, which is what I did.
At this point, I triggered the Rapax Away Camp replacing the Wilderness Clearing, and the landslide preventing any progress at Ascension Peak (can only get from Bela to the landslide).
While this is controversial, Humans do get the highest stat sum, while gaining no extra resistances, but also no penalties.
This means that, by level 30, most Human professions can get 4 attributes maxed if done right. This leaves the other 3 attributes at a minimum of 45, sometimes higher depending on stat requirements.
The best example of this would be a Human Psionic. My character maxed Intelligence, Piety, Speed, and Senses at level 27. Strength, Vitality, and Dexterity were then up for grabs to increase past 45.
So too long, didn't read (TLDR): Humans are more of a long-run class, if you can handle grinding, they come out on top.

I got the Destiae Dominus "early" because I was interested in the Renaissance Lute, and between the lute and the artifact there are no non-trival encounters to fight.

Drawbacks of humans:
* They're not focused on a particular stat, so builds that don't need many stats and can afford to dump some stats are ofte better served with a different race.
* No innate elemental resistance, as was mentioned.
* No innate damage resistance.
* No ability to breathe acid, unless under the effect of the Dracon Breath spell. (Breathing acid is very useful for MDP or quasi-MDP parties, if the character isn't otherwise capable of doing decent magic damage.)
* Can't equip the Giant's Sword.
* Can't equip either the Fey Ring or the Ring of Beasts, which are nice accessories if one happens to drop. (Both are farmable, though one requires fighting an enemy type that's often considered dangerous, and the other requires turning an entire race hostile (though one that players are more likely to turn hostile).)

Also, by the time you reach the levels you're talking about, the potential 15 point difference in the stat sum is small compared to what you get from all those extra levels.

(I consider levels past the mid 20s to be outside the normal parameters of the game; even 27 I consider to be basically the point where the game is over, so an expert skill gained at this level won't have a chance to develop.)

The way I see it, Humans are the race for builds that are diverse rather than focused, like many multi-class builds or less common builds like Str/Int (or Str/Dex) Bishops.

(Side note: My next playthrough after this one may not be for a bit, as Demon Lord Reincarnation is apparently coming out in a weak, and I want to play that game, as it appears to be a Wizardry-like with some SaGa mechanics.)

Just don't leave any artifacts in chests in the Rapax Away Camp, or the game will become unwinnable if you place at least 2 of them there.

Also, don't put any artifacts into single use containers, like the ones in the Umpani Base Camp or the skeletons in the Sea Caves or Ascension Peak. Once you leave the window for these, the container is no longer accessible. (Also, make sure to pick up the Spiked Boots the first time the game gives you the opportunity, because if you don't, you don't get another chance, which may be an issue when it comes to getting access to Marten's Tomb.)

The Chaos Moliri is in a chest. If I get the Destinae Dominus (without the Astral Dominae), will the landslide still occur, or can I skip it?

(By the way, I've read of a trick to avoid the Enthralled status entirely; if you attack Al-Sedexus in the rift while she's still friendly, and kill her then, you won't have to deal with this condition at all.)

You can do these things, but it would probably be best if you just played the game as I did. Killing Al-Sedexus after the deed is so much more satisfying. Similarly, kill Don Barlone for the Astral Dominae after killing the breeders. What do I know? I play the game normally.

In the case of Al-Sedexus, I'd rather kill her first to avoid the enthralled status, or even try avoiding the quest entirely by not having 2 artifacts at the same time. (The current save has none; Chaos Moliri is in a chest in Arnika, and I didn't save after obtaining the Destinae Dominus,)

In a way, the desire to skip the quest is a lot like my desire to skip the kidnapping quest, avoiding the temporary loss of a party member and the XP loss for that character. (But also avoiding the 75,000 XP reward for doing so.)

As for Don Barlone:
* I don't like killing shopkeepers, and Don Barlone is a shopkeeper.
* I can get the money needed at this point.

By the way, I think the funniest approach to getting the Astral Dominae would be something like this:
* Kill the breeders, turning the Rattkin hostile.
* Kill the Rattkin, taking their treasure.
* Everything they drop that you don't want, sell. Preferably to Don Barlone, if it's something he'll buy. (Don't think I ever checked to see what he buys.)
* Once you earn enough money, buy the Astral Dominae. With the money you got by slaughtering the rest of his race.

By the way, it occurred to me that a Genocide route through the game would not be the same as the Rampage run that I've heard about:
* For Rampage, you must kill everything killable as soon as you encounter them.
* The Genocide run requires killing more than just the NPCs you encounter during the game. Rather, you would need to complete the last part of the T'Rang and Umpani quests, the one to destroy the ships of the opposing races, and *then* kill everyone that's left.
* Well, maybe the Dark Savant can stay alive, particularly since the BOFFO and Evil endings fit this run better than either Good ending.

Also, what party of 6 would you make, given the following restrictions:
* Everyone must have SP.
* To elaborate on the previous rule, the allowed classes are full casters and hybrids, and characters aren't allowed to multi-class between hybrids. (Going between full casters and a hybrid is allowed, as is multi-classing between full casters. With that said, remember that multi-classing doesn't usually pay off in this game.)
* Ninja is not allowed. (Bishop is.)
* Party is assumed to ascend at level 25.

Six bishops is less of a headache than six fighters for rather obvious reasons. Don't forget that spells are hyper-accurate while early-to-mid-mid game physical is a lot of misses.

The default is often nothing or guard, depending on the game. Also, magical damage often costs resources and has other qualities. Queue games with cheap healing where it is often better to just spam full-party heal... Healing discouraged in battle is usually better, but that's easy enough to manage. That's what makes the penalties of healing in Neverwinter Nights so nice, makes it more interesting when one has to heal, and encourages the player to not gather all the enemies at once. Of course, there are non-healing ways to make coming back from the edge more interesting. Of, course, riding the edge is the best fun.

Not my place, but your neighbor seems like ass.

3e also gives human the favored class of (any) which is great in video game adaptations with limited XP.
Power cast parties are some of the most, eventually, fun of everyone gets the same expert skill parties.

I'll just say that, often, hobbit is a better choice, because piety is just not that important.

I've heard great things about Das Geisterschiff. But, now that Graverobber is making a create-a-party RPG, I might actually purchase one of their games, even though I'd like to play all of them, eventually. I hope Demon Lord Reincarnation is extra heavy on the resource management, that's my favorite. Although that whole optimize the fun out games may be true, because I've heavily minimized resource management in Infinite Adventures.

Bishop->specialist allows for some really good characters without giving up much, actually. Yes, even mage. Caster->hybrid is an immediate minus four penalty to every school of magic the character knows. Note, that penalty is actually not that bad long term.

I've hit a wall in Potato Flowers and clearly don't know how to build effective characters in Infinite Adventures. That's after beating two easy-peasy not RPGs and finding the final boss of •LIVE in Dungeon. Am wondering how much pain and suffering would be had by replacing a cleric/bishop with a champion in Augury of Chaos. Three+two nukers is enough, right? I've also been playing Wiz8 in small doses. I like this spell-casting warriors party, and this has been such a weird game, including getting to Gregor at level two! I noped to those roaches though, because no. Currently in Arnika, and am guessing that things will smooth out until the magical enemies become more common. Then the wait to the teens or so for magical resistances to be "enough." Hmm, seems like it'll just start getting solid where a balanced party would be super-charged. Is no wonder that most take one warrior of each magic school. Either as a quartet, or b/w bard and {bishop or gadgeteer}.

I've basically had enough with everything, being the middle generation (older Millennial, almost Gen-X). We are sandwiched between the Baby Boomers and Generation Z, basically, the last generation to grow up before the internet and smartphones.
At my job, most of the Baby Boomers are gone, save for a few, holding onto their fat pensions. I still have a pension (discontinued in 2012), so I have to milk it as the middle generation. I am working on my 20th year, on the floor, crawling around, until:
New kids arrive (Generation Z and out-of-state-contractors). We have submarines to build. Screw me right? I've only been there for my whole adult life, doing hard work, while the kids swarm in and get all the easy, "old man jobs". If I don't like it, I can quit, taking my pension with me.
I'm turning into the Dark Savant, hating everything and everyone.
Nonetheless, I have managed to get my Psionic and Mage "Staff of Doom ready". Their Close Combat and Staff and Wand skills are at least in the 80s, who am I kidding, I will max them, even if it takes forever.

Some mechanics, though, do encourage the player to gather all the enemies at once.

One example is when there's magic that can actually damage all the enemies at once, if they're gathered. Wizardry 8 is actually a good example here, in that if you're using an MDP, fighting all the enemies at once means you can kill them all at once, once you've cast enough nukes or other area damage spells. The SaGa 2 remake is another example; if you have strong enough all enemy attacks (like the one Urania has that annihilates all normal enemies (though you can only use her during the parts you don't have a guest party member in the original)), you can get into a big chain battle, blast all the enemies, and get a ton of money. (You're also more likely to get stat increases for humans/espers from chain battles.)

Or have you played the original Bard's Tale? In that game, the fastest way to get experience is to find a spot where tons of enemies appear at once (most famously that one spot with 396 Berserkers, but that may not actually be the best spot), blast them with spells and/or breath attacks, and rake in the XP.

I've been thinking of the healing spells I want to included in my CRPG (there will likely be a fair number of them, given how much I like healing spells), but there are definitely going to be trade-offs. Some healing spells that I'm thinking of including:
* A basic single target heal. If you get your magic stat high enough (by practice if the character is human, for example), it can actually be useful throughout the game, and isn't that expensive to use. (Think Wizardry 8's Heal Wounds for the amount of power I might aim for here.)
* A healing spell that always goes first. It's less efficient than the one mentioned above, but it's great if someone is on the brink of death, and you really *need* to get the healing spell off before the enemy's turn.
* A healing spell that always goes last, but will heal the party member who most needs it. (Think Wizardry 8 Lifesteal's secondary effect, or the Autopana spell from False Skies (which is another.create-a-party RPG).) This is useful if you're pre-emptively healing, and don't know who, in advance, the enemy is going to attack.
* A party-wide heal that also goes last. Not particularly powerful, but useful for healing if multiple characters need healing, or after the boss uses an attack that hits your entire party. Also useful for out-of-battle healing, if the damage is spread between the party (the intention is for this spell to be more efficient than the first spell in this case).
* A powerful party-wide heal, possibly approaching the level of a full party heal. The catch is that this spell is going to be expensive. If via item, the item has only like 3 changes (in a game where other items might have 30+ charges). If cast using MP, it's going to take a huge chunk of that MP. Also, I might require that the character take a turn to charge it up before use (though the charge can be saved for any point later in the battle). In any case, the cost should be high enough for this spell to not be spammed, and for it to be more the sort of thing that would be saved for emergencies.

Like using attacks that work better at low HP? (Best example: Final Fantasy 9's Limit Glove. If you are at 1 HP, it does 9999 damage, and I believe you can get that spell relatively early. The problem is getting to 1 HP without dying, as enemy attacks can and do easily take you down from 2+ HP to 0, skipping 1. Then again, I do remember at one boss hitting the party with a spell that reduces the party's HP to 1, creating a false sense of danger (it's easy enough to heal before the boss goes again).)

It's less useful if you're going for a class with a piety requirement, like valkyrie, lord, monk, priest, or bishop. (That's 1/3rd of the total classes.) In this case, the cost of increasing oiety to a moderate amount can't be avoided by leaving the stat low, and as a result the race's low base piety actually matters, even if you don't otherwise care about the stat. (There's also the fact that the chance of Divinity skill ups is affected by Piety, but since you can raise the skill as much as you want without spending limited level ups, that's less of a concern.)


For the CRPG I'm making, I'm borrowing an ides from the SaGa games that inspired it; there's no way to avoid resource use. Ebery attack either costs at least 1 MP, or uses up a charge of the item used. (Yes, even things like physical attacks like Long Sword or Bite.)

I've noticed that their one other game available on GOG, Ringlorm Saga, is also based on some lesser known (in the US) computer games. It's been compared to Hydlide, and there's similarities to Ys. I may get that game the next time the GOG version goes on sale.

There's games that encourage healing during battle, even when the heal isn't that strong. For example:
* In Final Fantasy 1/2/4/5 (and 3 remake), and most of the Dragon Quest series, there's weak healing abilities that can only be used during battle, but have no cost. In FF1, for example, it can sometimes be useful to kill all but one weak enemy, then just use the Heal Staff and Heal Helmet to heal the party back up before the next fight; definitely helps mitigate the resource management when healing is (mostly) weak and limited. Or the Dragon Quest series has healing staves, sage's stones, and later things like hustle dance.
* In some games, healing spells and/or items restore more when cast during combat. Final Fantasy 9 is an example of this. I've also noticed this with ethers in Final Fantasy 2 (though that's MP restoration rather than healing).
* In some games, healing during battle can give you permanent boosts that you wouldn't get outside of battle, or wouldn't get as much of. In Final Fantasy 2, if your Cure spell's level is low compared to the rank of the enemies you're fighting, the first cast during battle will give you more Cure XP than you would get outside of battle. (On the other hand, keep in mind that healing a character can cause their max HP to not increase at the end of the fight.) In the SaGa 3 remake, to level up an esper's healing magic skill pr get a chance to learn more powerful healing spells, you have to cast the healing spell during combat.