Level 11, and I now have the Staff of Doom for my dwarf bishop.

Elf bishop has Power Cast, and my mook ranger is one level away from that. (Mook ranger needs some major spell practice.)

While getting the Staff of Doom:
* A couple golem encounters, one being the one on the bridge. Fortunately, not too hard with 2 characters who can hit hard physically (now 3 with that staff, but I haven't fought with it yet), and the golems aren't that dangerous, especially once I can get Guardian Angel up on everyone. Definitely physical combats, given their high levels.
* One fight with lesser demons. Their spells and breath attacks don't hit too hard, even though they can hit everyone, but I have Heal All now. Also, Holy Water works on them. (Don't get enough opportunities to use that spell or Banish.)
* Fight with some winged enemies. Reloaded when, on the first attempt, my gadgeteer got drained 4 HP (I can't make renewal potions yet). Second attempt I used a corner to avoid being surrounded, and used magic to kill them. Ego Whip is a nice spell, particularly in the teens when they're the strongest attack spell you have. (Also, Bishops tend to have an easy time improving the Mental realm, in my experience.)
* I'm opting to keep everyone the same level, even if it means delaying level ups. I may make exceptions if the level up has some significant benefit, however.
* Currently, Bard and Valkyrie have 2 attacks. (In the Valkyrie's case, this is with the Stun Rod; I believe the accuracy penalty only affects swings and not attacks.)

From what I've heard, paying He'Li has no effect on whether or not Z'Ant discovers your double agent status. It's literally just random. Hard save sounds like the best option. And, maybe, after joining the Umpani to get more XP and such, use a quest item to initiate communications with Z'Ant for the alliance quest. Fun fact: the broken black box works for this.

Cleric was never actually supposed to be equivalent with healer. The third class was intended as the hybrid with a religious flare. This goes back to Dandy being, mostly, inspired by pulp. So, it followed pulp cliches; anyone who has read Three Hearts and Three Lions would understand this. The problem is that resurrection and full heal are dumb for such a highly lethal PnP game, but alas. CoDzilla wasn't really a thing till 3e for a reason. Yes, yes, individual computer software software/DM house rules notwithstanding.

Anyone who wants to understand how dangerous healing can be just needs to look at Overwatch. Of course, turning supports into actual supports alienates the healers (not healbot, I'm not that stupid), which are the people who most want to play support. (Although, in the trinity, it's often tank that's least popular, not that anyone cares.) Nevertheless, is it no wonder that some of the most fun cRPGs have strict, limited, or weak healing? Aside: the best alternative to long-term resource management is actually full resources for every battle. Both of which are often destroyed by "good" healing. Subjective terms being as they are. Which isn't to say healing doesn't have a place, of course.

Hmm, I've noticed losing attacks when abusing Zeus gauntlets/mage staff. Fun fact, Chaos can be BANEd. (II has that reliable glitch for instant death, heh.)

Knock knocks and poseur's, backed with thieves', for the flex, is enough for locks. Traps are either ignored, scummed, or tanked.

Mage's hp isn't that low except when monsters start casting the more powerful single-target damage spells. Unless you suck at the game, of course. Four mages isn't as much of a challenge as it seems like it should be, for example.

Alchemist's brew is one of the least useful passives in the game. It's niche uses are mostly obsoleted by shops and mixing.

The Prisoners of the Lost City, or whatever's a proper localization, has the issue where the level cap for monsters far exceeds the level cap for players. And, well, one doesn't have to do the math to know how horrible that is.

The trick is to put the lord in the last slot, since only the characters in the back take damage when the barrier fails. people actually recommend this. Of course, I assume you know, that barrier really starts to just not work at all, but that's only a deep paths problem.

Well, Experience, Inc. and Zero Div came out of the same company. In fact, Class of Heroes and Operation Abyss are both game developed out of Xth. So it's not surprising that there is some overlap between the two studio's games.

The classical MDP is a classic for a reason, and, unlike typical melee and ranged parties, has no repeated class. It might take more work, but I'm sure a bishop heavy party would actually be more optimal. Of course, the game is far too easy for that to actually matter, and thus the party that takes less time and effort should be preferred.

Fun fact, I've had many more bishops die at level one than mages and psionics. Why? Well, the only real threat, at that point, is self-destruction, and mages and psionics get a nice boosts to their realm skills, and bishops don't.

Alchemy can be boosted quickly if one is okay with tedium. Doesn't help with realm skills, though. But, at least, a ranger can get earth up via chameleon. Just rest after every battle. :)

Mental is so easy to build on any divinity or psionics caster, honestly. And Wizardry has two long-term buffs. A bishop gets both, so yeah, pretty easy realm to build up. And that's before factoring in power-leveling tricks.

Holding off on leveling, to keep everyone the same is a typical strat, and a good way to not make a bishop feel "weak" when running a bunch of the fastest leveling classes. I prefer to just run with things, which also helps with leveling faster, by the way.

True, weapon initiative only affects swings. Similarly, dual-wielding penalty to-hit goes away at one hundred skill—beyond that actually results in bonuses, at least for the main hand—but the penalty for attacks/swings never goes away. Of course, eventually, that's no longer a problem. But, in the mid-game, it often feels awful. But if you grind out the skills, it's massive DPS, in a game with rather steep diminishing returns. That's why, ultimately, I prefer long sticks. Extended also extends the returns in some situations. But shields are strong, and can always be used by dual-wielders for certain battles, so it's worth building for those who love the stance. Just, not for me. (But it does make, ultimately, dual maces better than martial arts on a monk. Oh, well, martial arts is strong sooner.)

Except that they then got a monopoly on healing magic, which really feels wrong to me.

Thing is, there is a point where healing is so weak it ends up not being fun. Pool of Radiance is one example, with Wizardry 6 and 7 also having issues. When it reaches the point where it takes way too long to heal your party even when you're in a safe spot (like in a town), then you know that healing is way too weak in that game.

There's plenty of good CRPGs where healing is quite powerful. You see this in many Final Fantasy games, for example. (Final Fantasy 3's 3D remake's endgame is hard even *with* casters being able to bring the party back up to full health in a single action), as well as in Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne (and maybe other games in the series?), as we;; as Crystal Project.

If you're going to go with full resources for every battle, you've basically made the decision to go low-attrition, which has many consequences. For example, you can't just have an ability that can easily clear out random encounters with one cast the way you can in high-attrition games. Also, low-attrition tends to lend itself better to shorter dungeons, as fighting the same enemies over and over again isn't interesting when you don't need to worry about conserving resources between fights. Definitely a viable approach (Chained Echoes apparently takes this approach), but it does affect the game design in very significant ways, which should be considered.


Also, I note that there's a trade-off between proactive gameplay (try to prevent bad things from happening in the first place) and reactive gameplay (try to recover from bad things once they happen). I personally find reactive gameplay to be more interesting. (Case in point: When watching Tetris the Grand Master, I find the recoveries to be the most fun parts to watch.)

In the original FF1, the chance is 0.5%. (It's also possible to get Chaos to run away, but that's in the realm of TAS and ACE runs, the latter of which is not a true reflection of the game mechanics.)

In remakes, you have to hit Chaos with XFER first, as Chaos's Poison/Stone immunity is full immunity, and you need to get rid of that for BANE to have a chance. (Note that this spell doesn't work on enemies in the original, but it *does* work against you, so watch out!)

FF2 also has:
* That one weapon that drains HP based on a percentage of the target's max HP. (Be aware that some enemies, including the final boss, have attacks with this property!)
* The Killer Bow, which has a chance of killing enemies instantly regardless of immunity. (Catch: You can't actually get this through normal play, and in some remakes, the descriptiong calls you a l33t haxx0r, or something like that.)

It does have a more obvious impact than the Mage's small resistance boost, though.

(Also, I think you meant "Its", not "It's".)

One party idea I thought of might be the 4 specialist casters and 2 Bishops, but with a catch:
* One Bishop isn't allowed to spend any spell picks. (Whether you allow spells without books to be picked is an open question.)
* The other Bishop isn't allowed to learn spells through books.

Or, you could just try two different Bishop builds, like what I'm doing in my current party.
Or simply being a little unlucky.

Incidentally, I've noticed a couple strange things about Mind Stab backfires (Mind Stab is often the only offensive spell a Bishop has at the start, mainly because it's picked because the spellbook can't be obtained.)
* For whatever reason, it takes a while for the backfire to reach the caster.
* Sometimes, the backfire seems to miss the caster and do nothing.

My favorite use of a shield is to give the Thieves' Buckler to a (caster) Bishop for the speed boost. Then, for the main hand, I give her a whip, so that she has the possibility of doing a bit of physical damage. (Drawback: If you get unlucky, you might not be able to get one for a while, as there's no guaranteed location, and it's not sold in Arnika. Alternatively, you reload the chest that has the Piercing Pipes until it has a Bullwhip.)

My battle bishop, meanwhile, just got the Staff of Doom.

It's interesting. The common perception of one who says such things is wrong. It's, more times than not, the insatiable urge of the midwit to utter such wastes of breaths. But, I digress. Fun fact: grammatical errors are common in the work of many a fictioneer. Why? If you don't know, maybe don't get into fiction. If I was devious, I'd litter my works with tiny little "mistakes" to shine a light on certain persons. If I was smart, I'd study the most obscure rules, and concoct the most egregious "near-mistakes" to show the world a score or more of midwits. But I'm not vile, I never even learned Escape-meta-alt-control-shift. Instead, I have merely decided to eschew my grammar checker, and dive in the deep pool of life On-line.

A one out of three monopoly, how quaint. Then more and more got it, to the point that even bards have healing magic. The best being unique to some full-caster, but yes, mostly priests—to use 2e terminology. That's more of an issue with the development of the systems, and D&D has always been a fundamentally flawed system anyway.

Healing doesn't have to be fun for a game to be. And strong healing is actually often a symptom, not a disease.

[cRPG, lists not cRPGs. Intéressant]

How can one defend brewing, when it is such a non-factor the majority of the time. Yes, it can lead to a scant few more money-making schemes, but any extra funding is such a minor margins... what is this!? a fast-food restaurant! The mage bonus is mostly nothing in the long-term, but makes a mage almost as tanky—to severely abuse notation—as a psionic for early-game. So, are you arguing simultaneously that early game is the most important factor, and end-game is the most important factor? I'm a little befuddled here, I don't know what to make of that. (Sure, sure, balancing both is an option, some say the peak is actually the hardest part of the game, and others say it's "hell" road. But that's not the argument I'm inferring here.)

That happens to all first-level spells that have a projectile. I notice it a lot with acid splash, for example. The one that isn't a projectile, of course, is make wounds. The projectile often travels from the other side of the map, which is really obnoxious on Arnika-Trynton road. Most speed hacks don't speed magic projectiles, so... (Unlucky wouldn't make a mage more of a liability than a fighter actually. Unless you mean unable to fight in corners, of course. That changes when one only more than three mages/psionics, of course.)

I believe I only listed computer RPGs (CRPGs), and not table top RPGs (TTRPGs).

(Note that I consider all computer/console RPGs, including JRPGs, to be CRPGs. In fact, if you look at certain early JRPGs, particularly the original Dragon Quest, you may find that they have a lot in common with early WRPGs like Ultima; the non-linear structure, single use keys, and dark dungeons that need to be lit are examples of this.)

And, of course, you violated an obscure grammar rule in this response. (In particular, it should be "were", not "was", because you need to use the subjunctive here, but most people don't know that rule.)

Anyway, we're getting a little side-tracked here, so let's bring the discussion back to the topic.

Like, the fact that my elf bishop has now transitioned to an Alchemy/Psionics Bishop. 51 in both skills, still has 61 in Wizardry, and is behind on Divinity (but my dwarf priest has it covered), and she knows Fire Bomb, Acid Bomb, and Ego Whip, so that's 3 realms she can attack in without Wizardry.

Dwarf Bishop is doing good damage with the Staff of Doom. Haven't tried using it as an item, but it's likely very effective at my level, if it doesn't fizzle/backfire. (And if the enemy isn't immune to instant death, so it won't help with getting the Giant's Sword.)

Reaching 40 Alchemy makes it a lot easier to raise the skill because of how much practice making Cure Disease potions gives.

My Ranger can reach level 12, and it might be a good idea to do that (even though my Bishops aren't ready for that yet) because it will give her Power Cast and raise her Alchemy past 40. But she still needs a lot of practice with her magic. May go get her Bloodlust so that she can more easily practice sword skill for later. (Auto-berserk plus extra swing = more skill increases than with other weapons.)

Bards were not in D&D at the time that Clerics were introduced.

Also, looking at Bards in AD&D:
* The 1e Bard was a rather complicated class to even qualify for, to the point where I would imagine most players would never have had the opportunity to play in a game with one. Even the Gold Box CRPGs didn't implement this class (if they did, that would have likely been most people's only opportunity to play with this class). Hence, this doesn't really count.
* The 2e Bard uses the same spell list as the Mage, and therefore doesn't get any healing magic.

By the time I reach Arnika-Trynton Road, I'm not using those spells at power levels where I have to worry about backfires. In fact, I'm generally not using these spells at all.

In fact, the only place where I actually notice this issue is in the Lower Monastery.

Thing is, healing is the role I happen to most like. I like working out healing strategies, and optimizing my healing capabilities, to the point where it can be frustrating when the game doesn't allow this.

Also, much of the problem isn't so much strong healing, but more when the power of healing isn't stable throughout the game. Having healing power be reasonably stable is something Wizardry 8 does pretty well; it's always strong enough to make an impact, but even Heal All isn't fully restoring the entire party at high levels. (If anything, the issues is that enemy direct damage, particularly enemy spell damage, can't keep up later in the game.)

Another thing: The most powerful healing abilities, like the ones that can bring your party back to full from the brink of defeat, should be expensive enough that you need to be strategic about when you use them. Dragon Quest 3 made the full party heal very expensive (perhaps too expensive, as they reduced the cost from 62 to 36 in the sequel), while the remakes of Dragon Quest 4 made the spell too cheap (20 MP, instead of the 36 MP cost of the original).

(Most extreme case of healing being too cheap is Bard's Tale 2, where there's an infinite use quest item that revives and fully heals the party, curing even petrification as well. There's also The 7th Saga's Elixir spell, which is only single target but fully restores MP as well as HP; it's like how Wizardry 8's Renaissance Lute can restore Stamina than it costs to use, but keep in mind that 7th Saga has only 2 party members.)

Also, status ailments can make healing more complicated, and may make it sometimes necessary to have some redundancy in the party; I prefer to have multiple characters with revive spells, for example, in case one dies.

Incidentally, one thing that can make healing painful in some games is when enemies have multi-target attacks, but you don't have multi-target healing. This happens in earlier Wizardry, and it leads to annoying situations when a single attack from an enemy needs 6 healing spells to recover from, particularly if it's the only thing you were hit by (or, perhaps, even just the only thing that hit your back row) during an expedition. Having a multi-target heal, even a weak one, would alleviate this issue.

Also, the JRPG mechanic where a single inn stay fully restores the entire party would also help, make it less annoying to manually heal each and every character between expeditions.

(Incidentally, I'm making a CRPG myself, and I've thought about what healing abilities will be in the game. One interesting idea I have is the difference between fast healing, which is great for saving someone who's about to die, and slow healing, which is good for pre-emptive healing when you don't know who the enemy is going to attack.)

I was always afraid of the temple battle in the Southeast Wilderness, but I managed to beat those battles in a few rounds. The Cultists died in Round 1 from a combination of Asphyxiation and Quicksand, so no elementals were summoned against me (curiously, the "boss" enemies Sorceress Queen, and two Death Knights, were not affected by these).
The Bard and Gadgeteer had their place too, in terms of magic. The Bard paralyzed one of the Death Knights, and the Gadgeteer nauseated the Sorceress Queen, so she couldn't take action. After that, I paralyzed them all, and hammered away at them (Banish works on the two Death Knights, as they are undead, and Boiling Blood dispatched the Queen quickly).
After that, fighting The Scythe and his mummies went smoothly. I got Fang as a reward, and the Gadgeteer can now stamina-cast Heal All.
The Bard and Gadgeteer both have 125 Strength. The Bard has the Ring of the Road (+20), plus Caliban's Cuirass (+10). The Gadgeteer has Tinker's Carryall Bracers (+20), plus Fang (+10). I will try to get Light Swords for both, as they will probably be superior to Bloodlust and Fang in the long run, at least as far as swords that the Bard and Gadgeteer can use.
I got a Staff of Doom for the Alchemist, but according to Flamestryke, I can farm two more for the Psionic and Mage from Rapax Corpses in the Rapax Rift. This would be interesting, seeing 3 SODs.

That "curious" fact that you mention is what I would expect to happen.
* Higher level enemies are significantly less likely to be affected by spells, including instant death spells.
* Death Knights are undead, and therefore outright immune to instant death.

Also worth noting that elementals also die easily to instant death magic (unless they're of the same element as the spell). In fact, getting rid of enemy elementals is probably the best use for the Instant Death spell (and Turncoat, for that matter; turn enemy elementals against other enemies, and if they're summoned elementals, the summon will eventually wear off so not targeting it as an enemy isn't a major concern).


As for my party:
* Bishops are still level 11, but everyone else is level 12. Want to get the elf bishop to learn Toxic Cloud or Psionic Blast, but need more skill for that (currently at 52 for both spellbooks).
* Elf bishop and mook ranger have Power Cast.
* I've switched the Ranger from the Stun Rod to Bloodlust so that she can improve her Sword skill. (Extra swing plus berserking means more frequent skill ups.) Not comfortable fighting the Death Knight (with 2 Gibbering Heads) at my current level.


Also, both bishops have Set Portal, but only the dwarf has Return to Portal. Dwarf portal at the teleporter, elf hasn't set a portal.

Dwarf is doing good damage with the Staff of Doom, especially with me boosting her strength; catch is that she only has one attack and won't get another one for a long time. (Drawback of battle priests that also affects battle bishops, and I'm not boosting Dexterity yet because I want Power Cast eventually.)

Probably the last significant major grab of the game, I raided the Mountain Wilderness tomb, gaining the Diamond Eyes mace for the Priest (I checked, he does indeed gain 3 swings per attack, due to the + to initiative).
This would be in comparison to The Mauler, which is much slower, and has a - to initiative. Also, the extended range Vampire Chain and Cat O' Nine Tails will have to be compared.
I misspoke. The Psionic lacks mass instant death spells, so he cast Soul Shield on round 1. The Mage cast Element Shield, while the Priest cast Death Wish, ending the cultists quickly, while the Alchemist cast Quicksand to no effect against the Sorceress Queen and Death Lords.
With the "Battle Priest" thing that you are referring to:
I set my Human Priest up as follows: Max Intelligence, Piety, Speed, and Senses (Powercast, Iron Will, Snakespeed, and Eagle Eye unlocked and maxed). Strength, Vitality, and Dexterity are in the 60s. Not too bad, when my Priest can hit from extended range with the Vampire Chain, leeching stamina from enemies, or stunning enemies in close range with the Diamond Eyes.

On the other hand, at certain levels of skill, The Mauler might give you an extra attack compared to Diamond Eyes, so you might want to check every now and then to see if it makes sense to switch for a while. The balance may change as levels, stats, and skills change. (Yes, even being hit by Superman or Hex may change which weapon is better.)

Also, note that it's not 3 swings per attack, it's *up to* 3 swings per attack, with 1, 2, and 3 being equally probable.

Vampire Chain and Cat O' Nine Tails get only half the Strength bonus, and don't do double damage to disabled targets. On the other hand, Vampire Chain does heal the attacker with every hit.

Honestly, I've found Piety to not be that important, particularly late game.

I'm noticing the lack of it on my Ranger, who doesn't have as much as my Valkyire, but then again they don't know as many spells as my Bishops, and I can still get more books for them. Ranger might not get that many Divine SP, but Heal Wounds isn't that expensive (I think she does have enough SP to use it at PL7, though not enough skill for that to be reliable), while Summon Elemental won't be for another 3 levels at the earliest for this character.

My other casters have enough SP that they don't need to worry, especially since I have rechargeable Mana Stones I can use.

I now have two of the three artifacts (Astral Dominae and Chaos Moliri), so I am being constantly harassed by: Savant machines who want me dead, Rattkin who want "protection money", which I always refuse, as the only good Rattkin is a dead Rattkin, and Rapax in the Mountain Wilderness (might as well kill them, they sometimes drop good items).
This happens in all non-town, wilderness areas (Arnika Road, Arnika-Trynton Road, Swamp, Southeast Wilderness, Northern Wilderness, Mountain Wilderness).
In comparison:
Cat O' Nine Tails: To Hit +3, Initiative +3, Damage 11-23
Vampire Chain: To Hit +3, Initiative +3, Damage 9-21 (when using this item it will heal the character as it strikes opponents). Drain Stamina 100%, Mace and Flail +10.
So it seems that, while the Vampire Chain does slightly less damage, it is clearly the better weapon overall.

I remember getting lots of treasure killing Rapax in the Rapax Castle's main level.

You might want to fight away from Ferro, so that he doesn't enter combat and get killed. Or you could fight close to him, so that you're there to protect him. Or, of course, if he's being attacked and you can't get there, you can still hit the Rapax that are attacking him with Freeze Flesh (not Freeze All) and Psionic Blast.

By the way, I've been wondering how well an MDP would work in other Wizardry games. I know that in Wizardry 1 there's the issue of getting to level 5, but as soon as you do you do you have a rather powerful party that will need to go back to towh to rest frequently.

Maybe I should try one in Labyrinth of Lost Souls?