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General discussion (archive)vote AgainSt gog cenSorship!(209 posts)(209 posts)
(209 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 30, 2012
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xyem: Good. But if you kicked my ass because I said I didn't like the way you decorated, then we'd have a problem :P
Right. But you're not just saying "I don't like it" but you're saying "let's change that by voting!" and I'm saying it's stupid :P

It's private property, the owners decide, not democracy. Maybe I jumped on you too much, but you know what I mean: if gog thinks it's better for them to delete bad language from topic titles, so be it.
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maycett: No it doesn't, you'd soon find yourself without enough customers to keep the business afloat, if you kick out everyone for any little thing that offends you.
And it's still my right to go bankrupt, or is it?

Or maybe I will attract customers with the same principals as mine? You don't know, and you shouldn't tell the owner what he should do.

ps. steam is kicking people out for slightest offence and they still live and have more and more customers every year. HOW COME?!

pps. no offence, but "give a pig too much freedom and it will shit on your carpet".
Post edited May 30, 2012 by keeveek
Posted May 30, 2012
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rampancy: Now, that the "unwashed masses" have discovered GOG, we now have the unfortunate reality of dealing with people who just, well, aren't on the whole as pleasant to deal with as they were Back in the Day. How should we deal with that? I suppose your guess is as good as mine.
In these cases (topic titles), I think it should be:

Step 1) Point out the topic title could be offensive.
Step 2) Ask to change it to something that (should be) less offensive.
Step 3) Politely request the poster be more mindful with their topic titles in the future (regardless of whether a change was done or not).
Step 4) Ban people from the forums who repeatedly put offensive stuff in topic titles despite the polite request to not do that - because it is a perfectly reasonable request!

What's wrong with that?
Posted May 30, 2012
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keeveek: So if I kicked my customers out of my store because of misbehaving I would be the oppressor?
I never said anywhere that you're an oppressor. I just meant that you're unlikely to have a very successful (hypothetical) store if you kick out people for something as minor as saying "ass". Nothing personal, I just disagreed with something you said.
Posted May 30, 2012
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xyem: What's wrong with that?
How long should they wait for a reply after Step 1? And how many first timers could have been offended and left GOG.com for good in that timeframe?
Posted May 30, 2012
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maycett: I never said anywhere that you're an oppressor. I just meant that you're unlikely to have a very successful (hypothetical) store if you kick out people for something as minor as saying "ass". Nothing personal, I just disagreed with something you said.
Might be true. Gog on the other hand is affraid that they might loose some customers if their parents see bad language on forums. I respect their right to run the business as they like.
Posted May 30, 2012
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keeveek: And it's still my right to go bankrupt, or is it?

Or maybe I will attract customers with the same principals as mine? You don't know, and you shouldn't tell the owner what he should do.

ps. steam is kicking people out for slightest offence and they still live and have more and more customers every year. HOW COME?!

pps. no offence, but "give a pig too much freedom and it will shit on your carpet".
Again, you misinterpret what I said. I never told you to do anything. -_-

As for the steam thing, do you have any evidence for that? They might ban forum accounts a lot, but I've yet to see a credible account of them banning a steam account for a slight offence.

Still, even if steam did do things like that, they're established enough that it wouldn't hurt them. GOG isn't in a similar position.
Post edited May 30, 2012 by maycett
Posted May 30, 2012
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keeveek: No. My house, my rules. It applies to business perfectly.
That idea sounds familiar...
Posted May 30, 2012
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xyem: My issue isn't with JudasIscariot, at all. I'm sure he thought he was doing the right thing and had the best of intentions. It was a mistake, they happen. The issue is that is wasn't reversed!
and what if it was reversed - a big victory for democracy everywhere, a forum title got changed back to ass from its Latin name. HURRAY!!!

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xyem: To cover their asses, they would have to censor or remove a whole load more stuff. What if Valve sued them for the topics saying Steam is crap?! What about the topics where people badmouth DRM. The people who make it could sue!

Once you start censoring one thing that might get you in trouble, you have to censor everything that will get you in trouble because you are explicitly taking responsibility for that content being there!
Well, it was kind of my point, and the reason this is a non-issue, that gog don't really censor anything. They change a few "bad words" in titles (and why is it only now you are bringing this up as this have happened many times before?), but the original post is unchanged and the meaning of the title is exactly the same. There has been no censorship (a little bit moderation, maybe) so there are no issues here except those you are trying to make them into.

One of the first things I learned about life is that it is constantly on a 'sliding slope'. There are no black and white, but everything is various shades of grey which needs constant negotiation. If you only see the world in black and white you will become a crusader (which is not a good thing...) and then it don't really matter which side you are on as they are both as mutually destructive.

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xyem: A whole lot of people think DRM isn't an issue. Or that women are second-class citizens isn't an issue. Just because you don't think it is an issue, doesn't make it a non-issue.
sigh... strawman? neither of these issues have any relation with this at all. Those are valid issues, this is a made-up non-issue, gog did not censor, they moderated a bit only.

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xyem: So? Close the topic if you don't like it, which I believe was, oh yes...your logic.

My logic, on the other hand, is you should come here and tell me what you think, what your views on the subject are so we can both learn each others point of view and, hopefully, come to a amicable resolution.
ohh, I like this thread now. there are many good jokes in this thread. However, your issue is non-existing.

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xyem: You're clearly demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge of who I am.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, I strongly oppose DRM. It's the reason I am here, it's the reason I buy a lot of things from GOG and a major reason why I buy things from GOG for other people. I also strongly oppose censorship. Do you really expect a different ferver in my support of DRM-free gaming (most of which I can't play, because I don't use Windows) and my disapproval of unwarranted censorship?
I have no idea who you are (and not quite sure why you felt you needed to emphasis this), I do not know you at all, same as you don't know me. All I know about you is that you seem to be quite generous and have a nice cat. Other then that you are just another random name in a forum, just like everybody else here. Good for you that you don't like DRM and Windows, but again it has no relation with this issue. And again, where were you when they changed some titles before?

There was no "unwanted censorship" here, just some moderation. And if you did not realise that a company run forum would need moderation....
Posted May 30, 2012
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JMich: Would you still object to a change of "Check out my new vid homies!", since that is also censorship.
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xyem: Depends.

If the staff member said "This could easily be offensive. Can I change it to 'homies' instead?" (and nothing else like 'and if you say no, you'll be banned') then no, I wouldn't object because the author is effectively changing it (they simply doesn't have the direct power to).

If the staff just went and changed it, then I would (or I suppose, do) object.
In fairness to your sense of propriety, I'd probably edit "Check this out niggaz!" in a heartbeat.

I know that we're not seeing eye to eye on this issue, xyem. I'm sorry to hear that, since it's obviously important to you.

There are a few reasons why I haven't changed the title back, despite the fact that I don't really mind "ass" in subject lines.

It's a learning example. GameRager joked about "GOG.com Training Camp", but there's a certain validity to what he was saying. A community is a very delicate thing, and showing, say, the new community moderator that we're getting ready to hire that something as trivial as that can spawn a 100+ post-long thread about censorship is a valuable lesson to teach. It also teaches Judas a little about when to use his newfound powers and when not to.

It's a little rough on the OP of that thread that his post ends up becoming a learning item for the GOG.com staff, but I think reverting the link back to the way it was would make it seem like we're trying to cover up a mistake. I'd rather have it remain as an example than be changed as a fumble-fingered attempt to hide something. Own your mistakes, even if they're minor like this one was, or you won't learn from them.

It's also a bit of a learning example for the community: we don't like swearing in our topics. If we see this, we'll change them and politely ask you to refrain from such in the future. It's not done to censor you so much as it is done to ask for a certain low bar of civility. When someone sees this happen, they see our preference and they might just remember.

Also, this is a place of business. I'm not saying that I'm going to demonstrate our capriciousness by editing random comments (although the fey urge to edit your topic to "vote BgainUt gog cenTorTip was pretty hard to resist :P), but there are certain things that aren't allowed on the forum. Is "ass" one of them?

No, not really.

But if you're looking at the paper definition of censorship, yeah. We censor these forums. You wanna post porn? Banned. Hate speech? Banned. Assault other board members? Banned.

"If your forums are full of assholes, it's your fault" is a loose quotation by one of my favorite authors, and it's true. It also means that I limit speech here, and while you may not object over the presence of the "light" censorship that we practice to date, we do censor these boards. To expect otherwise in a place of business is folly.

I am an advocate for free speech--for all that there's a lot of speech that makes me uncomfortable--but at a business? No. There's more or less a requirement of censorship there, because otherwise there are people who will make things so noisome that your customers will all go away.
Posted May 30, 2012
I'm sorry , but i had to downvote this thread .
Post edited May 30, 2012 by ne_zavarj
Posted May 30, 2012
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maycett: I thought the OP of that thread just felt like being wordy when saying ass, I had no idea the thread title was actually changed...

At the very least, leave a note when something is moderated? Sneaky moderations are a bit mean and underhanded :(
it was not sneaky, JudasIscarrot said in the thread that he changed the title. Like they usually do when they change it.
Posted May 30, 2012
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JMich: Main reason I used the n-word (look, I'm changing my previous post, I'm a self-censor) is the fact that I think almost all of us find it offensive. I can try to make thread titles using the f-word, the c-word, the mf-word and a whole lot of others that will retain their meaning even if changed. Would you still object to changing any of those words without first asking the poster if he minds?
To me, the form of the word (written or spoken) isn't offensive.. it's the intent. It's hard to find "nigger" offensive when 1) it's not even directed at anyone and 2) the people who should be offended by it, call each other by it in a positive manner (which is how I read your example by the way). "You're an ass" is worlds apart from "You kick ass!" for me.

Not that I would use it as a descriptor, because I am aware the person I am describing might find it offensive.. but they might be just as offended if I used "black person" so it's eggshells all the time anyway. But at the same time, I wouldn't be telling those that did use it (in a friendly manner) not to.. though when an individual gets offended if someone else calls them that (like a non-black person), that really grates me. "Only a ginger can call another ginger, ginger" indeed.

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JMich: Replace "someone" with "Judas", and you are asking for the community to think that any action by Judas may not be an action GOG.com welcomes.
And the alternative is to ask the community to accept what Judas does without question of whether GOG welcomes it or not. Is that better?

I still don't see how that is hypocritical. Did I claim to believe what I just wrote above (about blind acceptance)?
Posted May 30, 2012
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amok: Well, it was kind of my point, and the reason this is a non-issue, that gog don't really censor anything. They change a few "bad words" in titles (and why is it only now you are bringing this up as this have happened many times before?), but the original post is unchanged and the meaning of the title is exactly the same. There has been no censorship (a little bit moderation, maybe) so there are no issues here except those you are trying to make them into.
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gameon: Because ass isn't swearing. Fuck is swearing, but ass is not. I dont think i've seen ass moderated before in a thread title.
I know - it is sill gog's prerogative to deem what they can show or not. Not Xyem or anyone else's. Xyem is now on a crusade, and in this thread he is going out against all "censorship" by gog.
Post edited May 30, 2012 by amok
Posted May 30, 2012
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maycett: I thought the OP of that thread just felt like being wordy when saying ass, I had no idea the thread title was actually changed...

At the very least, leave a note when something is moderated? Sneaky moderations are a bit mean and underhanded :(
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amok: it was not sneaky, JudasIscarrot said in the thread that he changed the title. Like they usually do when they change it.
It wasn't obvious though. Something like [moderated] in the thread title would be better. I though the OP was a bit strange until I saw this thread and realized that the title wasn't his choice.
Posted May 30, 2012
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gameon: Fuck is swearing
Are you kidding me? Fsck is the one magical word.
Link is obviously NSFW, due to the many fscks given
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)vote AgainSt gog cenSorship!(209 posts)(209 posts)
(209 posts)