I did notice, hence my mildly troll post on the last page.

This
change = bad
mentality is moronic at best, but unfortunately exhibited by a large number of people on this forum.

How about providing a reasonably argument for why you should be locked into stat/skill arrangement?

I can try to put forth one for the counterparty.
Locking one into their skill and stat distribution is illogical because:
One might want to use different skills when levelling as opposed to when they reach the max/a high level. Even the more so when more skills are opened up as the person levels. This encourages people to save up skill points. Therefore the leveling part of the game becomes a chore because people will stick to the most basic skillset in order to be more powerful later on. Even worse, people might discover that this particular skillset does not suit their choice of gameplay, or it's not as powerful as they'd like it to be. This leads to even more downtime as people then have to arbitrarily level up another character in the same dull manner in order to be able to be able to play the kind of character that they want to. It 'forces' people to actually look up build from an external resource, because in an ARPG skills are rarely balanced and improvisation is typically detrimental to how powerful your character is. It makes it more difficult for developers to balance over/underpowered skills because people they will be ruining peoples' efforts at min/maxing and thereby their source of enjoyment.

Imagine WoW without respeccing. Would it make any sense?
They fucking finally added respeccing to D2. The game could have benefited from this a decade earlier.
On the other hand, I practically played through TL1 only by using 1-2 skills because going online in order to look up a good build breaks the flow of the game and I feel that doing so is counterintuitive to the experience that the game is supposed to deliver.
In Diablo 3 I have changed my build so many times that it resembles almost nothing from my original playstyle. I fail to understand the reasoning behind why I should have 10 hours of grinding every time I want to try something new.

When D2 got the option to respec, no one really cared. It functioned just fine for 10 years.
Changing the system to a MMO style is just pissing off your core audience as these are two different genres.

Choosing a build adds to the replay value, as you can replay a single character multiple times as opposed to D3 where you just grind the end game (as far as gather this is the main appeal for you).

T2 has the option to rollback the last four skill points, so you can try a skill out before committing to it.

Don't neglect your pet's armor, assuming that is the case. I'm also playing an outlander, and my pet panther is a freakin tank.

I would rather say that few cared as most people had moved on...

By the way, "it functioned fine for x amount of time" is the weakest excuse possible against any innovation. If this was a stance to be proud of we would never have invented fire....

Speak for yourself. It pissed YOU off. After a moment's reflection, I realise that I have probably sunk way more hours into ARPGs than you have and consider myself as much of a core audience, if not more. Not that it matters. Nor does 'distinction' between ARPGs and MMOs.

Games like D3 give you choice. Choice is good. If you want to stick to one set of skills, then do so? No-one's forcing you to change skills, you can simply level another character? And I fail to see how leveling a new character gives you more replay value? After all, all that you're doing is the exact same shit albeit in a more limited environment?

Fine if you want to take the discussion in that direction...

D2 was a finished product, not an experiment in innovative gameplay. As such it functioned just fine for X years. Adding respec wasn't an innovation, it was adding something akin to a cheat so you don't have to replay it for the 56th time for a wanted build.

Not allowing unlimited respec appeals to me for a few reasons:

1. Decisions have more consequences. Consequences are fun.

2. Characters have a little more character... my character is "A mage who specializes in fire and wands" as opposed to a "mage who can do basically whatever equally well depending on how he feels that day."

3. Although realism is obviously a tiny tiny concern with games like this, it just feels a little fake somehow to let a single character toggle abilities with no consequences. It sort of makes a mockery of the whole "experience=mastery" idea.

I like the idea of building up the power of a skill set over time, rather than amassing a pool of fungible "skill points" that I can allocate and reallocate to my heart's content.

I'm not overly concerned about having to play with a suboptimal character, and if I want to try a new play style I'll just make a new character and have at it again. I don't think it's that different from starting over to play with a new character class, and most people don't seem to have a big problem with that.

I AM speaking for myself, as you are for yourself. It's kind of vital in discussions and opinions, no need pointing it out or constantly rationalizing how your stance is the right one.

which was a good thing, why do you want to reply it for the 56th time? I like to experiment when playing, old D2 was not very experiment friendly, I got sick of starting over and over again...

You say that when you refer to yourself as the "core audience?"
I'm not denying that you are a part of the "core audience." I'm saying that you implying that your views also reflect those of a large, diverse group of people with differing views is twatty. Rationalising one's grievances at least provides a basis for discussion and progression, as opposed to bashing a game for doing something differently.

All of this provides enjoyment for how YOU want to play the game.
So just play the game the way that YOU want to play it?
You want to master that particular skillset? Go ahead?
I fail to see how giving players less choice is good game design because players end up ruining the game for themselves.

If they added a "build your own equipment with any stats and requirements you want for free" button in the inventory, usable at all times, but you wouldn't need to use it, would you feel that it lessens your enjoyment of the game, or would it be good because you're given the choice?

This all boils down to what you want from your game. To me, aRPGs are a lot about the anticipation. I want to try something nutty, so I start working for it. Then I play the game to get to that nutty thing, and enjoy it. The enjoyment comes from playing the game with a goal in mind. With a system that allows me to change my build at a whim, there would not be that enjoyment. If the thing doesn't work out, it's a bummer, and I'll try something else. I've never followed a "best build", and I'd probably be bored out of my mind if I did.

I also don't enjoy these games if I'm not playing on hardcore. That's hardly "logical for min/maxing". It's probably quite "illogical", and I don't get why that is a bad thing. Matters of preference are like that.

...and it's not "change = bad", either. It's more like ¬(change = good).

You're stretching the argument too far, to nonsense really. It's not a matter of adding a "click here to finish the game" button, it's a matter of optimisation. Sure, you might get anticipation out of building up a character. Others might consider having to grind in order to get to the game part of the fucking game a waste of time.
Many games give you a choice of difficulty when you first start. Do you consider this to be detrimental to your enjoyment of the game?

ARPGs are an exercise in repetition and the good ones have a long life due to mastering this element. Personally, I like games that reward me for pouring in the hours. I know that not everyone is interested in building the perfect character, but it feels nonsensical to me that players are in fact penalised for not having started a new one. You're enjoying the endgame but wish that you were a cookie-cutter like that other dude playing the exact same class? Well, go and start a new character! Do you see where I'm going with this?

All in all it's very easy to come to a compromise. Give people CHOICE. Then people can choose exactly how they want to play the game.

It's a bit hyperbolic to equate creating an imperfect skillset with "ruining" the game.

Basically I think the choices that players are offered will affect the way they experience they game. If people get the ability to rejigger their skills to their hearts' content they'll probably end up doing so, even if they might have had more fun making a character and sticking with it. And if they choose not to do so they'll probably go through the game wondering if maybe they should.

Asking players to voluntarily handicap themselves so they can artificially create the kind of game experience they prefer usually doesn't work that well I think. (Ironman mode is an exception).

Just wondering, would you want to see characters be able to shift from warrior to mage to rogue to whatever in the middle of the game, as often as they want, with no consequences? And then be immediately able to barter their gear for comparable gear belonging to another class? This would maximize "freedom" I guess but I'm not sure it would maximize fun.

just great the 160mb patch , just wiped out all my maps progress and the shared stash....be careful

You misunderstood me. I didn't equate "creating an imperfect skillset" with "ruining the game." I said that I find it unfortunate that people find that having more choice ruins the game for them. You find more enjoyment in a rigid formula that provides little deviation, however others might find that choice and diversity provides more entertainment. Both options are valid, but I find it unfortunate that people belonging to the former category find the option of picking the secondary category something that is detrimental to their experience.

And as you put it, it does come down to the handicapping yourself. You think that it's a good idea that people should have to resort to studying an external source in order to maximise their enjoyment of the game in the long run. I disagree.

Do I think that people should be able to freely switch between character classes and levels in the fashion that you put it? No. But this is exactly what I've been saying thus far: it's not about black and white, it's about getting your shade of grey right.
Effectively, leveling a new character is a form of entry barrier. The first 10 hours of your game are a clickfest in very limited circumstances, so that you can actually create that kickass character that you always wanted to play. Doing that once or twice is an experience of its own, but it loses its novelty value when you have to do it every time you want to try something different (or misclick).

Let's look at D2. I loved that game and played it like a maniac for a decade. What did character creation boil down to? People would get hellrushed in ~2h, then came Trist runs, Baals/Cows/Crypts, NM Baals, Hell Baals or just CS runs. It was monotonous. You needed a friend to organise the things for you anyway, so the end result was that the two of you had killed the evening in order to get you to a standard where you could actually play the game the way that you wanted to play it. Yeah it was fun for the first few times but after that it became a pain in the ass.

D3 got rid of all of this bullshit by getting rid of stat allocation, getting rid of equipment stat requirements and by allowing one to distribute skill points freely (with a minor, temporary penalty). I have played my Witch Doctor for nearly 400 hours right now and hundreds of these hours have been spent playing with different skillsets. I enjoy the game a lot because it allows me to change my character in order to match my skill level, gear level and choice of gameplay. I don't enjoy it less because it gives me more freedom. On the contrary, it has massively boosted my enjoyment of the game. I sure as hell wouldn't still be playing if I still had to use Zombie Dogs on the 'merit' of having found them useful when leveling and I definitely wouldn't like it if I had to spend another 10-20h to level a new character in order to deviate from this skillset.