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monkeydelarge: After seeing all these threads, participating in some of them, I have come to this conclusion(and losing 100 rep just for posting a link to a video about Anita). There is a battle going on. A battle between those who enjoy sexed up females in video games and those who don't. A battle between those who enjoy saving women and those who do not because they only want to see strong women. It is impossible for both sides to a reach a compromise. It is impossible for devs to make a game that caters to both sides.
Yes there is a way. Simply add in the option to get actual armor for your characters or sexualized pieces that show more than they cover. Simply let the player / gamers decide what they want to use / see.
To top it all off, do that for both male and female - that's a solution of striking simplicity.
A lot of games already have checkboxes if you want to show your helmet / shoulder pads, why not for sexualized content? And all game devs have to do, is create a few more textures.

But as long as we get shining examples like Terra's castanic female armor set that barely protects from a brise (not to mention enemies) the heavier the armor set gets vs the male ones, I find it hard to claim "no issue" here. :)
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VanishedOne: Games journalists on gender/ethnicity/etc. representation tend to remind me of general news journalists on gaming: out of their intellectual depth without realising it.

I think it would be unfortunate if only people with related scholarly credentials got to pontificate about the matter; but I don't think interviewees are obliged to respond to clumsy leading questions.
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Nalkoden: I agree. Discussion about such matters should be available to all regardless of academic level but people/academics that have been studying it for some time will have greater strength of argument, well at least in my opinion.
I've mostly thought that the greater strength of argument goes to whoever has the strongest argument, not whoever has managed to collect the most authority points by studying for x number of years.

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aymerict: In my opinion, it is deeper than refusing any discussion. Many gamers think they know it all and are right, as comments like "not again", "here we go again" suggest. I want video-games to be more mature than that.
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Nalkoden: I also want games (gaming industry) to get better at handling and using serious themes. But I also don't expect them ALL to be so mature. Just as I like watching Steven Seagal or Arnold Schwarzenegger action movies I like silly, over-the-top, fantastic games. I guess it's all about the context is what I'm trying to say.
Perhaps, then, it would be better not to take attempts to point out how almost every game displays immaturity and call them "'Social Justice Warrior' crap"? You can say you don't want them *all* to be so mature, and that's fine, but it becomes a problem when that is screamed in defense anytime someone wants to promote maturity in *some* games.
Post edited November 23, 2013 by zotofmu
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Kennethor: What? Just what? How old are you really.

Are black women oppressing white males in any way? Give me an example. I don't even know why I aswered this childish comment.
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WBGhiro: Where in any first world country are black people being oppressed?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/30/italy-racism-cecile-kyenge-esterofilia

Do you get my point?
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monkeydelarge: Ok, most feminists strive for equality, not female dominance but
Do they now? I'm not sure what dimension you're from but take me with you!

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zotofmu: For those interested, RPS posted a follow-up to the original article, which seems to address many of the topics brought up in this tread, i.e. "it's just a game", "no political stuff in games, please", "games are art, don't criticize", "don't censor", etc.
Here's a quote from the end of it:

" Oh, and here’s the real kicker: this stuff matters in MOBAs. Tangibly and overtly so, no less. MOBAs like LoL and DOTA are infamous for their often toxic communities, and women – unsurprisingly though very depressingly – get the special insults. “Jokes” about their inherent inability to play well, very specific swears, crude references to body parts, “humor” about weight, propositions – all of that good stuff. And again, while scantily clad, disempowered female character designs alone aren’t going to “turn” someone sexist, they do contribute to an environment in which it feels more natural to disregard or otherwise demean women. "

So basically, calling a female player a c*** or b**** is wrong because it demeans women but calling a guy a d*** or f****t is fine because men are men. The only difference he's implying here is that men can take it, women cannot, which again is the anti-equality that people claim feminism strives for (see first quote of post). And this is the kind of political bullshit that everyone is hating on them for, Mr. zoto. The reason feminism is silly is the same reason menism (men fighting for man rights to not be called male slurs and to be treated fairly by the oppressed women who continually bash them for being men) would be silly. Everyone's equal until they make themselves otherwise.

Not to say that there aren't places in the world where oppression is real and not just a fashion statement, but fixing broken cultures/societies/countries isn't something we're equipped to do yet.
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Kennethor: Ha, are you serious? You mean there is no racism and no women at all in the whole world that are being violated at all?
Oh sure there's still ol' man Jenkings rambling something about coons being the scourge of the earth somewhere in his trailer home, and that's not really nice. But are black people being actively ostracized or lynched anywhere for being black?

and define women being violated

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Kennethor: Italy, just one example.
Hah, but we haven't been a first world country for years!

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WBGhiro: Where in any first world country are black people being oppressed?
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Kennethor: http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/30/italy-racism-cecile-kyenge-esterofilia

Do you get my point?
Oh Lega Nord you never cease to make us look bad. Okay to put this into perspective this is a right wing nuts party. These guys' goal is basically to segregate North italy from South italy, because south italians have curlier hair or something. If they took a guy with a slightly southern look on him in the party they'd probably would've gone just as full retard.
Post edited November 23, 2013 by WBGhiro
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Nalkoden: I also want games (gaming industry) to get better at handling and using serious themes. But I also don't expect them ALL to be so mature. Just as I like watching Steven Seagal or Arnold Schwarzenegger action movies I like silly, over-the-top, fantastic games. I guess it's all about the context is what I'm trying to say.

Example, DOTA game characters (male and female) can be exaggerated because of context. I mean, why isn't anybody complaining about poor marginalised minions that get slaughtered by the thousands? :)
I agree. I can enjoy games of different styles too, and be critical at the same time. Also I guess we can't really be too picky on the style if we want to play some good games!

I just don't understand why so many people are very defensive when critics try to asks some questions. I don't think RPS should be bashed just because they dared to say something that doesn't pleased the majority.

Many people are being so conservative, they seem so scared that their beloved sub-culture is going to be changed by some simple critical thinking.
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WBGhiro: But are black people being actively ostracized or lynched anywhere for being black?
If that's your bar for what counts as oppression, you're setting it artificially high.
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Nalkoden: I agree. Discussion about such matters should be available to all regardless of academic level but people/academics that have been studying it for some time will have greater strength of argument, well at least in my opinion.
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zotofmu: I've mostly thought that the greater strength of argument goes to whoever has the strongest argument, not whoever has managed to collect the most authority points by studying for x number of years.

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Nalkoden: I also want games (gaming industry) to get better at handling and using serious themes. But I also don't expect them ALL to be so mature. Just as I like watching Steven Seagal or Arnold Schwarzenegger action movies I like silly, over-the-top, fantastic games. I guess it's all about the context is what I'm trying to say.
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zotofmu: Perhaps, then, it would be better not to take attempts to point out how almost every game displays immaturity and call them "'Social Justice Warrior' crap"? You can say you don't want them *all* to be so mature, and that's fine, but it becomes a problem when that is screamed in defense anytime someone wants to promote maturity in *some* games.
What I meant is that if someone has a job in which he does certain activity for a long time (some kind of social analysis in this case) then he will have better knowlege about it and make better arguments. And by authority I'm thinking "authority on XYZ" not "divine infallible dictator whose word is law".

I called it "SJW crap" because they were overreacting and I don't like that kind of aggressiveness in opinionated discussions. For me talk like that can get us back to time when showing ankles was perverted and slutty.

Also SJW is a derogatory term for me. I see it as someone who knows what can provoke most people or what is the current "hot" topic to get clicks on their website, sell their book or generaly increase status and wealth while at the same time not adding anything new to the discussion or offering any solutions to the problem.

PS: Please forgive any grammar mistakes, I don't post in forums much and english is my second language. :)
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zotofmu: For those interested, RPS posted a follow-up to the original article, which seems to address many of the topics brought up in this tread, i.e. "it's just a game", "no political stuff in games, please", "games are art, don't criticize", "don't censor", etc.
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MaximumBunny: Here's a quote from the end of it:

" Oh, and here’s the real kicker: this stuff matters in MOBAs. Tangibly and overtly so, no less. MOBAs like LoL and DOTA are infamous for their often toxic communities, and women – unsurprisingly though very depressingly – get the special insults. “Jokes” about their inherent inability to play well, very specific swears, crude references to body parts, “humor” about weight, propositions – all of that good stuff. And again, while scantily clad, disempowered female character designs alone aren’t going to “turn” someone sexist, they do contribute to an environment in which it feels more natural to disregard or otherwise demean women. "

So basically, calling a female player a c*** or b**** is wrong because it demeans women but calling a guy a d*** or f****t is fine because men are men. The only difference he's implying here is that men can take it, women cannot, which again is the anti-equality that people claim feminism strives for (see first quote of post). And this is the kind of political bullshit that everyone is hating on them for, Mr. zoto. The reason feminism is silly is the same reason menism (men fighting for man rights to not be called male slurs and to be treated fairly by the oppressed women who continually bash them for being men) would be silly. Everyone's equal until they make themselves otherwise.
I'll admit that I don't play in the MOBA community, but is it really rife with special insults for men (without regard for sexual orientation): "jokes" about their inherent inability to play well due to their gender, very specific swears loaded with centuries of sexual and social oppression, crude reference to their unique body parts, "humor" about weight, propositions?

I think it's disingenuous to imply that men and women should react equally the same to insults and hostility when they don't receive nearly an equal level of such. Most men simply don't face the kind or amount of abuse that women do in gaming.

To my knowledge, feminism (or other such movements), don't say everyone should be equal. They merely say everyone should be treated equally. And that is not what is happening.

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MaximumBunny: Not to say that there aren't places in the world where oppression is real and not just a fashion statement, but fixing broken cultures/societies/countries isn't something we're equipped to do yet.
So... don't bother trying to make things better? We can't make it perfect, so just ignore it?
Just FYI, in many African countries racism against whites takes a form of beating and killing people just for being white. Not all over the world being white means being privileged.

Just FYI.
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keeveek: Just FYI, in many African countries racism against whites takes a form of beating and killing people just for being white. Not all over the world being white means being privileged.

Just FYI.
So ?

I just feel like this thread has turned into a liberal vs stromfront debate which is going to end up in a rubbish bin.
Post edited November 23, 2013 by Narakir
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Narakir: So ?
I was just responding to some comments about how whites cannot be oppressed. If you didn't understand, that's cool.
I live in Sweden, it is one of the richest and most equal coutries in the world and we still have a lot of racism and women being opressed here. There are a lot of countries in Europe where the racism is spreading.

Whatever it is in Italy I still count it as a first world country and there is obviously a lot of racism there, you have lost all your arguments.

Take some time to think about what racism is and why people suffer because of it, I don't want to argue with you.
I just feel that it's sad that some people ignore and deny that other people are suffering.

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Kennethor: Ha, are you serious? You mean there is no racism and no women at all in the whole world that are being violated at all?
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WBGhiro: Oh sure there's still ol' man Jenkings rambling something about coons being the scourge of the earth somewhere in his trailer home, and that's not really nice. But are black people being actively ostracized or lynched anywhere for being black?

and define women being violated

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Kennethor: Italy, just one example.
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WBGhiro: Hah, but we haven't been a first world country for years!

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WBGhiro: Oh Lega Nord you never cease to make us look bad. Okay to put this into perspective this is a right wing nuts party. These guys' goal is basically to segregate North italy from South italy, because south italians have curlier hair or something. If they took a guy with a slightly southern look on him in the party they'd probably would've gone just as full retard.
Post edited November 23, 2013 by Kennethor
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Nalkoden: I also want games (gaming industry) to get better at handling and using serious themes. But I also don't expect them ALL to be so mature. Just as I like watching Steven Seagal or Arnold Schwarzenegger action movies I like silly, over-the-top, fantastic games. I guess it's all about the context is what I'm trying to say.

Example, DOTA game characters (male and female) can be exaggerated because of context. I mean, why isn't anybody complaining about poor marginalised minions that get slaughtered by the thousands? :)
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aymerict: I agree. I can enjoy games of different styles too, and be critical at the same time. Also I guess we can't really be too picky on the style if we want to play some good games!

I just don't understand why so many people are very defensive when critics try to asks some questions. I don't think RPS should be bashed just because they dared to say something that doesn't pleased the majority.

Many people are being so conservative, they seem so scared that their beloved sub-culture is going to be changed by some simple critical thinking.
I prefer to, at least in this case, let them do as they please. If someone doesn't like their product then there's no sale. If enough people do it the company will either change or collapse. This is a medium that depends on customers and as such will do whatever it takes to make them happy. Although EA puts some dents in my argument. :)

So my stance is: Allow them do as they please and let the customers sort them out.
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monkeydelarge: Ok, most feminists strive for equality, not female dominance but
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MaximumBunny: Do they now? I'm not sure what dimension you're from but take me with you!

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zotofmu: For those interested, RPS posted a follow-up to the original article, which seems to address many of the topics brought up in this tread, i.e. "it's just a game", "no political stuff in games, please", "games are art, don't criticize", "don't censor", etc.
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MaximumBunny: Here's a quote from the end of it:

" Oh, and here’s the real kicker: this stuff matters in MOBAs. Tangibly and overtly so, no less. MOBAs like LoL and DOTA are infamous for their often toxic communities, and women – unsurprisingly though very depressingly – get the special insults. “Jokes” about their inherent inability to play well, very specific swears, crude references to body parts, “humor” about weight, propositions – all of that good stuff. And again, while scantily clad, disempowered female character designs alone aren’t going to “turn” someone sexist, they do contribute to an environment in which it feels more natural to disregard or otherwise demean women. "

So basically, calling a female player a c*** or b**** is wrong because it demeans women but calling a guy a d*** or f****t is fine because men are men. The only difference he's implying here is that men can take it, women cannot, which again is the anti-equality that people claim feminism strives for (see first quote of post). And this is the kind of political bullshit that everyone is hating on them for, Mr. zoto. The reason feminism is silly is the same reason menism (men fighting for man rights to not be called male slurs and to be treated fairly by the oppressed women who continually bash them for being men) would be silly. Everyone's equal until they make themselves otherwise.

Not to say that there aren't places in the world where oppression is real and not just a fashion statement, but fixing broken cultures/societies/countries isn't something we're equipped to do yet.
That is what AFnord said. I just repeated what he said because I didn't feel like arguing with him. But clearly, he has never lived in the USA.