valarlight: Max Payne

Painful to play...so repetitive, total snoozefest..I have no idea why it's always been so highly rated.

lettmon: Ok, can you name a shooter that isn't repetitive? Or any game at all for that matter?

orcishgamer: I'm curious what is different about Korean dramas.

El_Double: Ok here it comes people, brace yourselves...

Planescape Torment

Yeah, seriously. I just never figured out what it is that people see in this game and God knows I've tried. It is just... uninteresting, and the leveling system is so confusing. Generally, when I level up my characters in a RPG, I'd like to know how each stats affects my character so I can develop them the way I want to. In Torment I had no idea how to get myself, for example, a mage-type character and how to expand his magical abilities. And what's with the immortal main character? "Oh no I just died!!! Oh wait a second, nevermind..." But I must confess that I never really got into this game despite the time and effort I sacrificed for it, so maybe I've misjudged something. On the other hand, I never found the game entertaining enough to keep on playing, so that does tell something, doesn't it? Oh well, I guess you just can't like 'em all. Now go ahead and crucify me to the Tree of Woe.

valarlight: Max Payne

Painful to play...so repetitive, total snoozefest..I have no idea why it's always been so highly rated.

balanceofpower: So as you can see, I'm not judging Deus Ex through a modern lens but holding it up to the standards of its day.

SimonG: I found there was a lot of "drama", espically on a personal level. Every person you have to save can die. An outcome is never given, always in your hand. But yes, in the end it was lacking in the grander story presentation department, sadly DX:HR does make a similar mistake.

SimonG: Actually, you did have. A lot of people could be dead or alive at the end of the game. True, it's nicer if you get a round up like Fallout, but sadly very few games to this and so it's left to the imagination of the player. But even in Fallout, without the ending slides, it would always be "Master dead, Base destroyed, Player exiled".

SimonG:

balanceofpower: You assume this because I'm on my first playthrough? That's rather presumptuous. I've been gaming since the days of DOS; I know how to properly gauge games according to their respective era. And I'm sorry to say but even by 2000 standards Deus Ex isn't really that remarkable.

The question that the game begs to be asked is: is it an FPS with RPG elements? or is it an RPG with FPS elements?

As an FPS, it is a failure. It is saddled with poor controls and extremely poor AI, even by 2000 standards.

Enemies are dimwitted automatons. Once they've spotted you they will either run straight at you, stand in place while shooting at you - or - if you run away into cover will either give up or chase you around a corner where you can dispatch them easily. Recall, now, that 1998's Half-Life had AI which was able to flank your position and flush you out with grenades.

Deus Ex's poor AI also explains the inconsistent pacing of the game. If playing a stealth character the game quickly becomes boring. At first it's cool to sneak around levels, using your stealth pistol you can easily double pew-pew guards in the head. However, once you've done this numerous times it loses its appeal. The only thing that breaks up this monotony are the mechanical bots and cameras and turrets that inhabit the same levels.

As an RPG, Deus Ex isn't so much a failure as it is just...flat.

Yes I agree that it explores certain philosophical / political issues that few games have touched - admittedly it is this aspect that has kept me coming back to the game - but the handling of these issues is so feckless that any semblance of depth is purely superficial.

Additionally, there's no real sense of drama. Take for instance the events that happen later in the game as MJ12 and Bob Page move in to take over the government. There is no sense of urgency. You read about martial law in the United States through a newspaper, something this grandiose and dramatic deserves nothing less than a cutscene, yet you read about it instead.

Moreover, You have no real control over these events either, they happen regardless of how well you play. In truth only a few choices you make through the game are going to affect one of the three endings you'll get.

Now you take the original Fallout for instance, a game where most of your choices make huge differences in the game's outcome, including the finale; not to mention the sense of urgency of finding the water chip for your vault, the success or failure of which resides purely in how well you're able to do. This is a perfect example of where Fallout succeeds whereas Deus Ex fails (or at least flounders).

So as you can see, I'm not judging Deus Ex through a modern lens but holding it up to the standards of its day.

I hope this clears up my position on the game.

SimonG: It really does, and I found it very interesting to read. You make very valid points. Which I find strangely hard to contradict. Yet, I still feel it was and is a great and brilliant game. Maybe nostaligia is getting the better of me, I don't know. But I still think you judge a bit to harsh on some aspects.

SimonG: No you can't. Neither can I. Nobody can. When you play a game is still a huge factor on how you "feel" about the game. I could write an essay about my current HL2 walkthrough, but I've written enough already ;-)

jefequeso: Thing is, though, the game's real triumph wasn't the individual systems, but the way they all worked together to make an interesting sandbox world. The amount of freedom you have in Deus Ex is really quite spectacular. Is it worlds more than what you can get in other games? No, not really. But I think it's on par with the best of them, even today. What makes Deus Ex so special is just how unique and odd it is. It's not any particular genre of game. It's just a mash-up of a bunch of different ideas, but somehow they all work together to make something that can be quite fun. The thing is, you need to approach the game not as a "FPS/RPG," but as its own beast. It's about interacting with the world in different ways, and trying new things. It's about looking at your inventory and skills and thinking "how am I going to solve this particular situation with what I have?"

That being said, I think fans do sort of overrate the game, and I can completely understand disliking it. I myself hated the game at first. It took awhile for it to grow on me, because it was a little hard to understand what the developers were really striving for. But once I got a handle on how to approach the game, it really clicked.

EDIT: To be more specific, I think Deus Ex IS one of hte greatest games ever made, not because it's a shining example of gaming perfection (like Zelda or Baldur's Gate II), but because it's an incredibly ambitious game that manages to create a pretty cohesive and engaging experience despite (or perhaps because of) the "throw everything at it and hope it sticks" design philosophy.

anjohl: (MMO's in general, though since they are not games, they don't really qualify)