It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
Gersen: The problem with online activation is not the number of activation, you could have billions of them it wouldn't change anything, it's that you have to ask permission to install/play a game you bought and that this permission can be refused anytime for any reason without you being able to do anything against it. (anything legal at least)

Yeah, I know, I'm not buying the game for sure now... But it kinda means at least a BIT better conditions. Again, I'm not saying it's good - I'm not totally against DRM, for example Steam seems reasonable to me since they give you a ton of functions as exchange for their DRM, but if someone finds FC2's conditions reasonable now, he -might- buy it...
avatar
Crimsoneer: Sorry, but I barely noticed the Spore DRM...5 PCs is a lot of machines. Also, its hardly securom.

You know, I don't think anti-DRM campaign is exactly about THAT. It's more about how companies see players, how they make pirates of them, at least in my case. Oh yes, I AM pirating games, but mostly because I want to try them before buying (demos would be topic for whole another discussion). Anti-DRM is about attitude of companies, it's all principles... I'm pretty pissed that I'm punished for buying their games, instead of rewarded.
avatar
Fenixp: You know, I don't think anti-DRM campaign is exactly about THAT. It's more about how companies see players, how they make pirates of them, at least in my case. Oh yes, I AM pirating games, but mostly because I want to try them before buying (demos would be topic for whole another discussion). Anti-DRM is about attitude of companies, it's all principles... I'm pretty pissed that I'm punished for buying their games, instead of rewarded.

And that's the whole point... Why are we - paying customers - treated worse than pirates? They can download any game, DRM free, while we have to worry about things like activations, revoke tools etc.
As for the game demos - it seems EA is trying to force a pay-for-demo model (remember Spore Creature Creator?). They are so blinded by $$ they don't even see that they are turning away their customers to piracy...
They WILL figure it out sooner or later - I hope it's later, when they go bankrupt.
Post edited October 18, 2008 by sahib
avatar
MinigunFiend: I wish we'd just go back to the good old days of finding a word in the manual.

Kinda hard when more and more games are shipping with what amounts to a multi-language reference card than a proper manual.
And I hate to be a spoil sport sahib, but EA are relatively safe from these lawsuits - copy protection software isn't malware, so any and all suits describing it as such will just get chucked out. Companies are legally allowed to protect their product, although SecuROM 7 does go too far. The whole ruckus being kicked up is mostly FUD from both parties.
At the end of the day, if you don't want the limited activations, don't buy the game out of principle, but think about boycotting in cases such as Far Cry 2, where the publisher has tried to do their best to reach a middle ground. If we all boycott the game and its sales tank, they won't remove the DRM... They'll just stop releasing games on the PC altogether - we are, after all, an ancilliary market at best.
Post edited October 18, 2008 by Optimaximal
And I hate to be a spoil sport sahib, but EA are relatively safe from these lawsuits - copy protection software isn't malware, so any and all suits describing it as such will just get chucked out. Companies are legally allowed to protect their product, although SecuROM 7 does go too far.

That's where you're wrong. EA has crossed the line and they are installing 3rd party software on your machine without disclosing this information and asking for your consent. Moreover SecuROM is a rootkit and has the ability to disable certain (or any) service or software on your computer - it is a fact, that it sometimes disables antivirus software, not to mention burning software or virtual drives. It also spies on your computer activities. Let me quote the definition of malware:
Malware is software designed to infiltrate or damage a computer system without the owner's informed consent. The expression is a general term used by computer professionals to mean a variety of forms of hostile, intrusive, or annoying software or program code.
SecuROM fits the definition perfectly. I don't argue that companies have the right to protect their software, but there is a certain legal limit to what they can and cannot do. Disabling your computer capabilities and monitoring what you are doing, and then transmitting that information to another party is most certainly a violation of our rights.
Apart from above I'm not sure you've read the lawsuits carefully enough - the main point is that there is a certain 3rd party program installed, and that it is impossible to remove without a system wipe. EA has no line of defence against that.
At the end of the day, if you don't want the limited activations, don't buy the game out of principle, but think about boycotting in cases such as Far Cry 2, where the publisher has tried to do their best to reach a middle ground.

Where it comes to violation of our rights there is no middle ground. Either a company violates them or it does not.
If we all boycott the game and its sales tank, they won't remove the DRM... They'll just stop releasing games on the PC altogether - we are, after all, an ancilliary market at best.

1. The PC gaming market is larger than that of any one console. It takes all of the consoles to beat that, so your point is invalid.
2. Thank God, I can't wait till they hurt themselves and stop releasing games for PC. There will be hundreds of other companies who are ready to take over their share of the market.
Post edited October 18, 2008 by sahib
If DRM is so illegal, how come EA, Ubisoft and others haven't had their asses handed to them in court yet?
I'm not pro-DRM by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just asking.
avatar
MinigunFiend: If DRM is so illegal, how come EA, Ubisoft and others haven't had their asses handed to them in court yet?

[url=]http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/10/08/MassEffect.pdf[/url]
[url=]http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/09/23/Spore.pdf[/url]
I imagine Ubisoft will be next in line.
avatar
MinigunFiend: If DRM is so illegal, how come EA, Ubisoft and others haven't had their asses handed to them in court yet?
I'm not pro-DRM by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just asking.

As sahib pointed out, EA is already facing two lawsuits.
The reason this hasn't come up before is because this latest version of SecuROM (version 7.x) is the one that's different. Previous versions were not the same as this one, which behaves exactly like malware and may well be worse than StarForce was. To my knowledge, BioShock was the first game to use it (I don't know if you're aware of the uproar that caused when people burned their activations right away), followed by Mass Effect.
avatar
Coelocanth: The reason this hasn't come up before is because this latest version of SecuROM (version 7.x) is the one that's different. Previous versions were not the same as this one, which behaves exactly like malware and may well be worse than StarForce was. To my knowledge, BioShock was the first game to use it (I don't know if you're aware of the uproar that caused when people burned their activations right away), followed by Mass Effect.

I found about the blessings of SecuROM by buying Mass Effect - which is right now nothing more than a nice-looking box on my shelve. I burned my activations on the first day while troubleshooting hardware problems, and to this day, have not received additional activation from EA. Too bad I wanted to get this game as soon as it came out - if I waited a while for the polish version I would get a DRM-free copy (Poland was the only country to get ME without the SecuROM activation nonsence).
avatar
sahib: I found about the blessings of SecuROM by buying Mass Effect - which is right now nothing more than a nice-looking box on my shelve. I burned my activations on the first day while troubleshooting hardware problems, and to this day, have not received additional activation from EA. Too bad I wanted to get this game as soon as it came out - if I waited a while for the polish version I would get a DRM-free copy (Poland was the only country to get ME without the SecuROM activation nonsence).

Yeah, I got burned by BioShock and vowed I'd never deal with that type of DRM again. Being a huge fan of BioWare's games, passing on Mass Effect was tough. And passing on Dragon Age will be even tougher. But I'm not ever going to spend money on something that contains that DRM again. So the net effect of this DRM has been that I've passed on 2 sure buys (Mass Effect and Far Cry 2) and passed on a 'possible' title (Spore) and will be passing on number of others in the future, it seems. In my case, the anti piracy measure they've decided to use has really helped them rake in the money, hasn't it?
avatar
Coelocanth: In my case, the anti piracy measure they've decided to use has really helped them rake in the money, hasn't it?

Oh yeah, they sure know how to inspire loyalty and make their customers happy...
Seriously people, do some research. Every single piece of software that comes with on-disc copy protection, be it any version of SafeDisc, SecuROM, StarForce, TAGES, FADE or LaserLok, installs drivers too your machine - it couldn't function without it.
Quoting phrases such as 'rookit' simply outlines how drawn into this whole wad of FUD you have been - the only reason such a term exists in the DRM sense is because Sony's Music CD kerfuffle and StarForce both had severe holes in them open to exploitation, a bad thing since the rootkit allowed access to the very core of the computer hardware.
On the other hand, the term rootkit also covers almost all utility programs that either function on a different lower level than the OS (i.e. all anti-virus software) or CD burning & Virtual Disc tools, like CloneCD, InfraRecorder & Alcohol 120%.
Also, your perceptions of the PC market are both clouded and skewed - yes, if you include massive money spinners like WoW & The Sims, yes, PC Gaming is huge. But in most cases you're talking genres and products where the console releases outsell the PC significantly - Call of Duty 4 has sold over 4 million copies on the Xbox360, whereas the PC has barely touched a million. As this simply translates into more money for the publishers, they (and their shareholders) know where too focus most of their attention - if we just walk away from big name stuff, we won't even see that stuff...
Do the math and YES, vote with your wallet, but don't reject DRM outright since its here too stay. You might as well just stop gaming all together.
Seriously people, do some research. Every single piece of software that comes with on-disc copy protection, be it any version of SafeDisc, SecuROM, StarForce, TAGES, FADE or LaserLok, installs drivers too your machine - it couldn't function without it.

Problems start when those drivers are limiting OUR machines' capabilities.
Quoting phrases such as 'rookit' simply outlines how drawn into this whole wad of FUD you have been - the only reason such a term exists in the DRM sense is because Sony's Music CD kerfuffle and StarForce both had severe holes in them open to exploitation, a bad thing since the rootkit allowed access to the very core of the computer hardware.
On the other hand, the term rootkit also covers almost all utility programs that either function on a different lower level than the OS (i.e. all anti-virus software) or CD burning & Virtual Disc tools, like CloneCD, InfraRecorder & Alcohol 120%.

Wow, I had no idea that CloneCD or InfraRecorder are installed without my consent and disable my antivirus software or some of my dvd drives...
Let's get something straight - when I decide to install a rootkit, then it's called computer software/utility. When it is installed secretly, without my consent and impairs my computer, then it's called malware.
Also, your perceptions of the PC market are both clouded and skewed - yes, if you include massive money spinners like WoW & The Sims, yes, PC Gaming is huge. But in most cases you're talking genres and products where the console releases outsell the PC significantly - Call of Duty 4 has sold over 4 million copies on the Xbox360, whereas the PC has barely touched a million. As this simply translates into more money for the publishers, they (and their shareholders) know where too focus most of their attention - if we just walk away from big name stuff, we won't even see that stuff...

Preconceptions? PC gaming market is worth billions of dollars. If a company decides to abandon its profits from this market, then it's only harming itself - not us. PC games have existed in the past, still exist and will exist in the future. I can remember all the talk about "PC gaming industry dying" back when the first Playstation was introduced. Guess what? We are still playing games on our PCs.
If you really think that ANY company will happily cut their profits, then you obviously have no idea how large buissnesses work.
Do the math and YES, vote with your wallet, but don't reject DRM outright since its here too stay.

Yeah, right. They said the same about the music industry. Could you please point me to the nearest store that still sells DRM music...?
You might as well just stop gaming all together.

I honestly CANNOT wait for the day when companies like EA and Ubisoft decide to stop making games for PCs. As I said before - there will be hundreds of other companies, managed not by morons without any gaming experience, that will gladly take their predecessors' places. It will be a very happy day for anyone that buys games for their PCs.
If you haven't got a problem with being fuc** at every turn by the so-called industry giants, then it's your decision. I respect myself and will not allow anyone to treat me like an idiot or a criminal.
Post edited October 19, 2008 by sahib
avatar
DukeNico: If you can't bear it (like me), you can buy it on Steam if you're american. If you're not, there are two options:
-You have an american friend, he can gift you the game
-You don't have an american friend, you don't play the game.
I won't buy it like I did with Far Cry (the first day!), but will wait for the undrm'd version like deathkitten said :)
avatar
Cabal: Sadly the Steam version also includes the extra DRM, much like Bioshock, Crysis Warhead, and STALKER Clear Skies before it.

Why would the Steam version of Far Cry 2 have this DRM, when Steam itself is a form of DRM. (One of the few kinds that I think is ok)
Does that mean your limited with the amount of installs of it via Steam? That was one of the pluses I had for getting games off of Steam is the ability to download and install my games as much as I want off of it.
Post edited October 18, 2008 by antibonk
avatar
antibonk: Why would the Steam version of Far Cry 2 have this DRM, when Steam itself is a form of DRM. (One of the few kinds that I think is ok)
Does that mean your limited with the amount of installs of it via Steam? That was one of the pluses I had for getting games off of Steam is the ability to download and install my games as much as I want off of it.

Steam: Bioshock did, Crysis and X3:TC now has them. (And probably others not available in my region)
The DRM/non-limited version can be used to assist the cracking of the DRM'ed/limited version, among other reasons. So yes, Steam Games now come with limited installs.
avatar
antibonk: Why would the Steam version of Far Cry 2 have this DRM, when Steam itself is a form of DRM. (One of the few kinds that I think is ok)
Does that mean your limited with the amount of installs of it via Steam? That was one of the pluses I had for getting games off of Steam is the ability to download and install my games as much as I want off of it.
avatar
Ois: Steam: Bioshock did, Crysis and X3:TC now has them. (And probably others not available in my region)
The DRM/non-limited version can be used to assist the cracking of the DRM'ed/limited version, among other reasons. So yes, Steam Games now come with limited installs.

As if the crackers had ANY problems at all cracking those games. What was it with Spore? A week before the US release?