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lukaszthegreat: Polish apples are banned. Time for polish video game shops too?
Currently Russians can still buy and sell stuff as it always was* in the EU and US and everywhere else. Only investment and certain wares are blocked. So no, not time for polish video game shops being banned, yet. ;)

*Ps.: With "always was" I mean post 1990 ... before 1990 Russians could not just "buy" stuff from the west. Let's hope it doesn't regress back to that, again. Hard to believe this was just 24 years ago....
Post edited August 06, 2014 by eRe4s3r
I love this. EU, by all means, please introduce more punishment and sanctions for Russia. It would certainly help my country's export system.

If one doesn't see the negatives of such actions, one has to be way stupid. If Russia falls, Eastern Europe falls.
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Elenarie: I love this. EU, by all means, please introduce more punishment and sanctions for Russia. It would certainly help my country's export system.

If one doesn't see the negatives of such actions, one has to be way stupid. If Russia falls, Eastern Europe falls.
It is a hard thing, indeed, and way less for the US than economies which are closer.

The question is, what if you were the Ukraine, as you might be at some point?

Economy or sovereignty?

I guess that is everyone's prerogative to decide.
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Dischord: snip
Russian leadership cards are being forced to play in a certain way mate.

At a general level isolationism is almost always economically net negative. But these are not economically rational decisions being done - though yes, there are spects of international finance and monetary realities being considred by the main sides for sure.

The reason this keeps escalating is twofold:
1- Ukrainians themselves are pushing. I'm sure Russia would have liked to leave things at the stage of winning Crimea over, then slowly corroding the political environment in Ukraine over to their side again. Instead, the governement pushed against the separatists hard - probably because they logically understood that without radicalising the conflict they don't stand a chance - no one would support them in any material way, just a lot of moral posturing.
2 - Russian internal politics demand strength. Putin is a very skilled politician, but he won't live forever and military or geopolitical oopsies are the kind of stuff that causes change at the top in Russia. This is completely supported by the majority of public opinion. If there is one thing Russia understands is shows of force. This attitude is increased by the feeling of being betrayed by their close ones.
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Gremlion: Personally, I see situation like that - plane was shot down, the next day IMF says that they would give Ukraine money(they couldn't decide for months), western press goes apeshit on Russia.
Then, suddenly - satellite photos of Ukrainian Buks in the place of launch. Credit to Ukraine is postponed, one of Ukrainian chiefs resigned, press is silent.
Looks like unsuccessful provocation.
oh yeah, whole world wants to put mighty Russia on it's knees, because they are frightened of the sheer power of Russian army :) They will even shot down planes to blame russia, those devils :) Dude, i'm not sure what photos are you talking about but it's kind of a fact that plane was shot down from territory that was controlled by terrorists. How the f#ck they could be ukrainian ?

Regarding Yatsenyuk resignation - it was because parliament didn't support his propositions and it wasn't connected to plane being shot down at any way, but of course this wouldn't convince you.

Overall, it's just sad how this "USA is the one to blame for everything" kind of shit that goes from Russian media is overtaking the minds. Alcoholics, bad roads and extremely corrupted government was imported from USA too, i presume.
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Elenarie: I love this. EU, by all means, please introduce more punishment and sanctions for Russia. It would certainly help my country's export system.

If one doesn't see the negatives of such actions, one has to be way stupid. If Russia falls, Eastern Europe falls.
Russia stopped offering the same low prices for gas to Eastern Europe as it used to. If Russia falls, Ukrainians and Polish will be happy. Negatives? Sure, there will be some. We're talking about a world power, but it's not like this hasn't happened before.

And who has time for Ukrainian Civil War when you can call girls in Delhi?
Russia's economic structure is still very much based on Soviet times, as in production is geared towards domestic consumption and self-sufficiency. Russia isn't China and sanctions will have little, if any, impact on the average Russian, if it hurts anyone it will rich oligarchs with lots of their wealth kept offshore. If anything Europe will just hurt itself through rising gas prices, and America won't import vodka, caviar or whatever insignificant exports Russia has to the West.

Everywhere from Syria to Ukraine and beyond, America has revealed themselves as incompetent fools.
Post edited August 07, 2014 by Crosmando
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Dischord: 1. I don't buy the Ukraine "civil war" spin.
2. I am sorry that the Russian people are, once again, being placed into a shitty position.
3. I am aware that the majority in Russia are behind their leader.
4. I am sorry that their leadership has failed them to where they need expansionist policies to feel good about themselves.
5. I don't understand why they need to gobble up neighbors, as they have plenty of land and resources.
6. I can understand their strategic insecurities, but I can't see why it would be in their interest to isolate themselves.
1. Would you buy "ukrainian oligarchs fight by using private armies"?
2. Still better than 90th.
3. Nope. Majority understands that he is puppet of oligarchs. Thing is, alternative - revolution. And Russia has bad experience with them. 1917, 1993... People, which CAN and DO work on making Russia better place slowly overtake - opposition won mayorship in Yekaterinburg and Novosibirsk (biggest Russian cities). People, which call for revolution - dumbasses. It never made things better. Mostly, they blame their faults on surrounding.
4,5. Russia secured its naval base from this https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=2bb691b61c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb
6. It is the US, which tries to break bonds between EU and Russia. Overtaking over billions/year trade routes is a big deal.

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apehater: where does this avatar come from?
looks like dr. zoidberg in real, i love dr. zoidberg.
It is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Hyneman
Love his show.
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eRe4s3r: aye, I meant European citizens with that. It's true that Kiev is not playing very nicely at the moment and EU gov is still talking with Russia. But what the EU does is based on elections, and public opinion is a powerful weapon.
2 things
Euro being weak is a huge economic boon for Germany. Never forget that ;)

I don't think it'll ever be a 2nd Vietnam for the West (At this point I have to ask, who is the west to you?
What EU does is based on intentions of EU business. Remember, Miller was saved from sanctions?
About your 2 things:
1. I'm ok with strong Germany.
2. West in this context for me - people, which live in the same media area. It took some time for people to get the true sight on situation in Georgia in 08-08-08. Think about it - shooting in Ukraine also started during Olympic games on national ground. More so, same people, which aired Saakashvili's hoaxes, aired Kiev's hoaxes. And Saakashvili himself visits Kiev. I don't see much difference between generic folks in EU, USA, or even Russia. We all want stable life and possibility to do things we like.
Currently, I see politic as a big theater. Governments do everything to show that borders still mean something. But, really, there are companies which can buy and sell countries as a whole. Who has more power - Chief of Lockheed or Jr. Bush as president?
How important color of paper on political map? Why humankind doesn't cooperate and use high unemployment rate of graduates in USA and abundance of Siberian resources to go into space?
Yeah, because selling weapons and natural resources makes some(count on one hand) people wealthier. And that's all.

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XenSavage: Dude, i'm not sure what photos are you talking about but it's kind of a fact that plane was shot down from territory that was controlled by terrorists. How the f#ck they could be ukrainian ?

Overall, it's just sad how this "USA is the one to blame for everything" kind of shit that goes from Russian media is overtaking the minds.
1. Ukrainian Buks, satellite photos http://lenta.ru/news/2014/07/21/launchers Dispatchers rerouted plane, Buks moved in, shot down plane, moved out. They are mobile, after all.
2. One of the biggest weapon exporters isn't trying to make new markets? Paint me skeptical.
Post edited August 07, 2014 by Gremlion
I must admit, it take a some skill to write a huge walls mostly filled with pretty close to <i>not even wrong<i> sentences.
Post edited August 07, 2014 by DarzaR
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Gremlion: It is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Hyneman
Love his show.
thank you
So the list of stuff Russia "boycotts" (since you can't sanction imports) this affects EU and US not alone, also included in this are Canada, Japan, Australia and a few others with close ties to the west. Obviously some of this is bad for Russians and some isn't. The very last 2 entries are very bad for Russians. General food will become more expensive. (And for Europeans, cheaper, thanks Putin ;P)

Edit. Previously I said New Zealand is affected, but turns out Russia did not embargo NZ imports after all.

Pork
Beef
Chicken
Fish
Cheese
Milk
Butter
Wine
ALL vegetables
ALL fruits

The countries most hit by this are, Germany*, Finland and Lithuania

*Only when comparing raw monetary value of lost exports

In a hilarious turn of events, Russia makes European food prices lower. If this is supposed to hurt us I am not seeing it yet. Although farmers will hate it, but they get subsidies anyway... in the end this will cost Europe actual money though...

Also note: Should this boycott remain in place for a longer period of time, these losses will mitigate because of new markets. For Russia prices will rise ie. Inflation. For Germans/EU the inflation will further fall, but some jobs will be lost. Concluding one can say, this is a very odd reaction by Putin. I assume it's to split Europe and make it loosen the stance on sanctions.

Either way, this isn't really a hard reaction by Russia

Ps.: Unless you have money and want to buy the "good" food in Russia ;p Foreign food will be even more expensive if available at all, and you can expect smuggle and black markets to appear. As they always do when imports are banned but the demand is still there.
Post edited August 07, 2014 by eRe4s3r
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lukaszthegreat: Polish apples are banned. Time for polish video game shops too?
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apehater: where does this avatar come from?

looks like dr. zoidberg in real, i love dr. zoidberg.
part of real life Futurama. I dont have a bigger picture on my current computer.
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eRe4s3r: So the list of stuff Russia "boycotts" (since you can't sanction imports) this affects EU and US not alone, also included in this are .. New Zealand
Nope, New Zealand isn't covered by the sanctions. Which is pretty sensible really, as we produce nearly everything agricultural in big surplus numbers.

It may also be because we were actually close to having a Free Trade Agreement with them earlier this year.
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eRe4s3r: So the list of stuff Russia "boycotts" (since you can't sanction imports) this affects EU and US not alone, also included in this are .. New Zealand
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Phasmid: Nope, New Zealand isn't covered by the sanctions. Which is pretty sensible really, as we produce nearly everything agricultural in big surplus numbers.

It may also be because we were actually close to having a Free Trade Agreement with them earlier this year.
Ah, this is actually very smart then by Russia. I honestly didn't know NZ was not full Nato member...
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Dischord: It is a hard thing, indeed, and way less for the US than economies which are closer.

The question is, what if you were the Ukraine, as you might be at some point?

Economy or sovereignty?

I guess that is everyone's prerogative to decide.
Corruption is so high across the board in Eastern Europe, that only fools would associate themselves with political or national organisations / morals / ethics / beliefs / whatever. I would write myself Martian tomorrow if it means that things would get better.

I guess not everybody would agree. We've enough nationalistic zealots as it is.
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eRe4s3r: Ps.: Unless you have money and want to buy the "good" food in Russia ;p
Because the food in Germany is good and not junk, right? Especially the fruit and vegetables, the quality is laughable at best compared to EE countries whose one of major industries is agriculture.
Post edited August 08, 2014 by Elenarie