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SLP2000: What I said, is that when game is about deep story and interesting world, combat should not be considered as important part of it. And that means, it should be short, action type fight, which is RTwP.

I don't want to play Torment and be immersed into it's world and story, and then bang - everything stops and we have a 30 minutes of combat.

Combat should be fast, as it is in reality. Pause is a compromise, and I'm fine with it.

Turns are for board games and stategy games, I am a roleplayer, and I prefer storytelling.
To summarize your main points, you said 1) combat and conflict are not an important part of the world and its story and 2) turn-based is a) "unrealistic" and b) not suitable for roleplaying.

I won't deal with (1) further than what I already said before - if you think that something is unimportant, that's fine, but why make the unimportant section bad?

So let's talk about (2).

a) Why is one abstraction of reality (pause) ok and another (turns) not? They're both unrealistic, so let's not pretend realism is the issue.

b) If by "roleplaying" you mean pen-and-paper RPGs, the underlying Numenera system, like AD&D, is turn or phase based.

But more to the point, what do you think roleplaying is, other than playing your own role, making choices, and seeing the consequences? If your real concern is "speed" and you just want to get on with the plot, then we are back to the world of interactive movies. Games are just a storyline that you press a button to move through. No input necessary from the player, the only role you play is as a spectator. If that's what you want, that's fine, but don't call yourself a roleplayer and don't play RPGs, what you really want is an adventure game or visual novel. Something like Uncharted or Walking Dead.
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oasis789: To summarize your main points, you said 1) combat and conflict are not an important part of the world and its story and 2) turn-based is a) "unrealistic" and b) not suitable for roleplaying.

I won't deal with (1) further than what I already said before - if you think that something is unimportant, that's fine, but why make the unimportant section bad?

So let's talk about (2).

a) Why is one abstraction of reality (pause) ok and another (turns) not? They're both unrealistic, so let's not pretend realism is the issue.

b) If by "roleplaying" you mean pen-and-paper RPGs, the underlying Numenera system, like AD&D, is turn or phase based.

But more to the point, what do you think roleplaying is, other than playing your own role, making choices, and seeing the consequences? If your real concern is "speed" and you just want to get on with the plot, then we are back to the world of interactive movies. Games are just a storyline that you press a button to move through. No input necessary from the player, the only role you play is as a spectator. If that's what you want, that's fine, but don't call yourself a roleplayer and don't play RPGs, what you really want is an adventure game or visual novel. Something like Uncharted or Walking Dead.
You seem not to understand me.

I'm not saying RTwP is bad, in fact, I think it's the best way to deal with a combat ever made in crpgs.

I do think that in some kind of crpgs, combat heavy, TB could be a better choice, even though I prefer RTwP.

So, to sum up (1) - for me it's not making the unimportant part of the game bad, it's making it the best way possible.

(2) - I didn't say anything about realism, I said ambout immersion, and action. For me it's a huge difference to stop the combat when you need, and then let it go again, than to make every move of the combat separately.

and (2b) - AD&D sucks, the only good that comes from AD&D system is in crpgs, when you don't see it. I, as a roleplayer, refuse to use any kind of system that requires more than 10 minutes to read & understand.

and to sum up roleplaying is "playing your own role, making choices, and seeing the consequencesę", nothing more, nothing less. Combat (to be more exact - combat system) is not important. I don't need to spend 1 hour to face the consequencesę of a fight, it can be done in 5 minutes. It should be done in 5 minutes. It's not a strategy game, after all.
Post edited November 22, 2013 by SLP2000
How would you guys feel if the story dialogue was excellent.... and the combat was limp unspiring very average ?.

Voting as it stands right now

Real Time with Pause Combat 5518

Turn Based Combat 5606

When i checked the other day Turn Based was like 250 odd votes behind....
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nijuu: How would you guys feel if the story dialogue was excellent.... and the combat was limp unspiring very average ?.
Well, that didn't really bother me in PS:T, so I could probably live with it ToN. If they stick to their goal of not having trash encounters or giving you more options to resolve potential combat situations, it should be fine with me. As long as the rest of the game is good, that is.
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nijuu: How would you guys feel if the story dialogue was excellent.... and the combat was limp unspiring very average ?.

Voting as it stands right now

Real Time with Pause Combat 5518

Turn Based Combat 5606

When i checked the other day Turn Based was like 250 odd votes behind....
Well, that´s the point:
I think that it doesn´t REALLY matter what BattleMechanics they choose as long as it´s execution is very well done!
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nijuu: How would you guys feel if the story dialogue was excellent.... and the combat was limp unspiring very average ?.
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Nergal01: Well, that didn't really bother me in PS:T, so I could probably live with it ToN. If they stick to their goal of not having trash encounters or giving you more options to resolve potential combat situations, it should be fine with me. As long as the rest of the game is good, that is.
Be aware of the fact that combat in Ton could be even worse as in PS:T, as PS:T was only overflown by some really annoying trash encounters, but the rest of the system was quite well done in comparision to a worst-case-szenario! (espacially magic was great)

So yes, I could even live with exactly the same system as in PS:T, but better is always better! ;)
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nijuu: How would you guys feel if the story dialogue was excellent.... and the combat was limp unspiring very average ?
I'd hope that one could play through as a combat-avoiding diplomat. (I spent quite a lot of PS:T running past enemies. Happily, the game let me run in real time.)

Given that one of the devs' stated reasons for leaning towards TB was that it would be truer to tabletop gaming - a dubious priority for people making a computer RPG, even if it's derived from a tabletop system - I'm a little nervous that they're going to attempt excessive fidelity to tabletop Numenera.
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nijuu: How would you guys feel if the story dialogue was excellent.... and the combat was limp unspiring very average ?
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VanishedOne: I'd hope that one could play through as a combat-avoiding diplomat. (I spent quite a lot of PS:T running past enemies. Happily, the game let me run in real time.)

Given that one of the devs' stated reasons for leaning towards TB was that it would be truer to tabletop gaming - a dubious priority for people making a computer RPG, even if it's derived from a tabletop system - I'm a little nervous that they're going to attempt excessive fidelity to tabletop Numenera.
Gah, those little mobs are all so annoying. And I was fully expecting not to have to fight almost at all going by what everyone was saying :D Now I'm just hoping I can get to use my magic spells more than once before they're gone xD

And don't worry, if I remember correctly, they said they won't have any trash mob encounters. That means that fighting will always be either something you want to do, or you can just resolve it by using your turn to charm/intimidate/whatever.

I think I'll probably vote for "undecided", since the only RPGs I've ever played were RTwP, so I can't judge if TB would be better or not. Although for me it just seems to be "too tactical" (saw a Wasteland 2 gameply video)...
But I trust that the devs will do it right, whatever system they'll decide for (though I guess it'll be TB anyway, so prepare, guys).

Funny how much people can discuss/be butthurt about this, though :D
I'm hoping most of the battles can be avoided. That is what I try to do in original as well usually as its combat system isn't very good.
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tomimt: I'm hoping most of the battles can be avoided. That is what I try to do in original as well usually as its combat system isn't very good.
AND way too much. You'd think some low-life thugs would be intimidated by a flying skull, a hulking scarred figure and a Githzerai :D
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tomimt: I'm hoping most of the battles can be avoided. That is what I try to do in original as well usually as its combat system isn't very good.
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Reever: AND way too much. You'd think some low-life thugs would be intimidated by a flying skull, a hulking scarred figure and a Githzerai :D
Floating schools brought back memories from infinity engine games :)

The black dragon in Icewind Dale II I laid a trap of nearly 100 skull traps...took out most of it's health! I felt accomplished :D (back in 2002)
what's the latest score on the vote?

did the devs give any sort of detailed explanation as to why it can't be an option to auto pause at the end of each round without everybody needing to vote? why is the auto option inferior to turn based all the time?
Post edited November 25, 2013 by IanM
TB is ahead by couple of hundered votes. inXile argued that TB would fit better on the rules of Numenera, though I persoanlly feel that's a bit of a moot point as the original Planescape didn't use AD&D rules that strictly either.
It seems a bit weird that that there is even a discussion when both camps can be catered to as they have been in the past. I wondered if there was some deeper technical/development resources related reason that TB is preferred.

I can't say I like the thought of being lumbered with turn based only unless the combat encounters are unbelievably well judged and implemented, but realistically I don't see that happening. There are always simplistic encounters that don't require much thought, and I suspect TB could become very frustrating for many more occasions when replaying the game?

I will keep an open mind whatever is decided after the vote.
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IanM: It seems a bit weird that that there is even a discussion when both camps can be catered to as they have been in the past.
Which cases were those? So far I recall Arcanum, where one of the two systems was considered broken and Might & Magic 6 (and onwards) where each system was useful when fighting specific enemies (and TB got tossed once you got blasters).
Personally I think the re-usability of Wasteland 2 combat code has played a role in this as well. They've done a working system already, so re-using it for Torment would save a lot of development time and costs.

But personally I don't care that much which one they choose, as I plan on avoiding comabat as much as possible.