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Fever_Discordia: Feminism is inherently a left-wing movement, you brought politics into your supposed crusade against corruption as soon as you decided to oust feminist critique while you were at it!
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Shadowstalker16: No one tried to oust feminist critique but Anita herself. Now that the tick has glued onto this ''feminist critique'' market; we have much lesser women critiquing games. And please define what the fuck this so called ''feminist critique'' is in the realm gaming.
Firstly, Is that more 'false flag' nonsense? You don't see me trying to claim that the GG meetup called the bomb threat on themselves do you?

And yes, Anita Sarkessian is one of the first journalists to bring feminist critique to the sphere of computer games, the first form of feminist critique was literary:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_literary_criticism

Before branching out to critique other form of media, such as film:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_film_theory

As film and computer games share a lot of the same visual storytelling techniques and language (especially in cutscenes and the like) feminist critique of computer games is very similar to that of cinema so that last link should tell you all you need to know
Hope that helps

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Fever_Discordia: Feminism is inherently a left-wing movement, you brought politics into your supposed crusade against corruption as soon as you decided to oust feminist critique while you were at it!
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dragonbeast: and we are supposedly the ones with the political conspiracy theories?
I state that I think that feminism is generally and inherently on the left of the political spectrum, which seems fairly reasonable, and you call me a conspiracy theorist? Wut?
Post edited May 10, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
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Fever_Discordia: snip
Here's the core core core problem that I see.

Mistaking logos for ethos. Reason and authority are not 100% aligned, much as smart educated "elites" want / need / like to believe it. And let's not even go into the emotional / pathos angle...

From Leigh's piece - the conclusion no less (emphasis mine):
It's a good takedown ... of geek culture's fixation in general on the idea that arbitrary, witless "offense" is some kind of sacred bastion ... It just doesn't have to be that way. We are supposed to be smarter than that.
The word smarter is standing in for better, the word witless is standing in for worse. Unless she is begging the question (unconsciously I'm sure... and I'm not being sarcastic) about her morals regarding freedom of speech and freedom to offend being smarter than her opponent's. :) Do you see it Fever?
PS: "takedown" is interesting word choice... she's quite a good writer :)

From Quinns:
But even worse is the thought that someone might sit down to play ... and assume the entire hobby is this boring.
You might say boring is more about an aesthetic, but SUSD reviews games more along my lines: objectively. They are often insightful about game mechanics. Considering the market success of CAH it's also effective rhetoric, but divorced from the facts. :) Do you see that contradiction? It's born in subjectivity.

A bit higher it's
What we’ve got here is a relaxed card game with the very real possibility of offending people ... This game had one job, and it failed.
See how the failure is dependent on the game's intent being relax instead of, say, provoke? (provoking is not satire by the way... I'm not sure if anyone is saying CAH is satire but I'd argue against them) Again, even in terms of fun and relaxing, has it realy failed? When you see millions buying it and seemingly numerous groups playing it without issue? To be fair Quinns is the one of the three that applies less logos and is not afraid to just make a wholly subjective ethical appeal. Still CAH wears offense and misanthropy on its sleeve. That's its whole theme. You should know what you're getting into when you play it, and if you don't that's no one's fault, it's just humanity. Tragic.

This notion there's always a will behind tragedy... so arrogant, so anthropocentric... Do you see it?

Matt... well Matt is actually pretty smart about this. He is basically putting his finger on a lot of the reasons CAH was so successful. The mistake he is making is not so much mixing up ethos and logos, rather divorcing them too much by assuming that only audiences like him are playing (assumption of a shared ethos). He means people like you Fever... Have you played it? Did if feel transgressive to you? Like reverting to a more primal being? :)
Anyway, there it is, the seed of the assumption those with a different ethos either don't exist, or perhaps are more primal, brutal, unrefined. Projection at its finest. It took Matt effort to be tolerant and innoffensive, this game undermines that effort, therefore everyone playing it must be experiencing it similarly. Because Humanity is sooo homogeneous. :)

Paul... well here we go back to reason as replacement for morality. Back to Leigh's type of thinking. Funny to think opposites do attract somewhat I guess... anyway back to Paul, and right from the intro:
The best way to describe Cards Against Humanity is “Lego for jokes”. It gives its players setups and punchlines, all ready to click together in one-step assembly. It’s easier than microwaving food or boil-in-the-bag rice. Almost no creativity is required, and because the powers of chance deal you your cards, it’s not as if you can even help the sort of combinations that present themselves, right? As well as creativity and effort, who even needs responsibility?
Do you see the elitism peeking through? :) It's easy, it's like Lego (eg: for children), it's not creative... all reasonable and logical criticisms (objective!), before we jump to responsibility. Because my conception of responsibility is tragic. It's that we humans have hardly any control over "the powers of chance deal[ing] you the cards" and we "can['t] even help the sort of combinations that present themselves". But the ethical thing (stoic) to do is to live with that. Accept it, do the best we can and move on. And to call that irresponsible, is to me, borderline offensive, that my conception of how to live my life, my agency - the fundamental thing that I have and no one can take, even if they destroy me - that is being dismissed a priori as unworthy and immoral, just because I was constrained, conditioned, imperfect. Do you see it Fever?

Consider these other quotes from Paul.
It openly, plainly, even joyfully acknowledges its content, with things like “The profoundly handicapped,” “Black people,” “Auschwitz,” “Homeless people,” and “Surprise sex” which, if you’re not versed in the term, is a euphemism for rape. So it doesn't whitewash Humanity, and reveals it as exactly what we actually know it is: humanity... and it's a box with cards... the joy is not in it, it's in the players, maybe it enables it, maybe not.
...whatever you come up with was your choice. You’re the one who put those pieces together. But Cards Against Humanity still gives you the tools with which you can construct these calls and responses. It still frames and controls what happens. There’s a word for this, and that word is “enabling.” Me I call it human life... ergo, just because I choose to adapt my agency to context, it's still mine. Society has not controlled me, it just framed me. It does that to all of us. Tragic... maybe... I think we all enjoy not having to choose sometimes - abdicating responsibility I'd call it.
This one is revealing:
The explosion of Cards Against Humanity has, I think, been downright hurtful to board gaming’s progress. He's mixing commercial success which obviously CAH is not hurting at all in terms of more players, etc... with ideological progress, well, or diversity progress... but it's all fear... he offers no data to prove anything. Anyway the dissonance of the two is clearly hurting him... not hurting me though... and I don't know why his ethos should be privileged over mine...

And Fever, you pretty much said no one is trying to stop anything right? Reread Paul's conclusion:
So, if you were thinking about buying Cards Against Humanity, perhaps you should think again, because your money is an encouragement, your purchase is a statement and your playing is a representation. Personally, I am not remotely okay with Cards Against Humanity representing us. I hope a lot of other people aren’t, either. I hope they say so, too. That's not trying to stop sales? Honest and clear call of boycott I haven't seen :)
Anyway CAH only represents those that accept it. If Paul doesn't (because of his ethos) fine. If he wants everyone else to agree, he should go more into ethos, or actually offer data to his logical points, instead of trying to convince us his is the only logical possible conclusion. Do you see how subjectivity and ego, are basically turning reviewers into politicians instead of journalists? :) Vote with your wallet, but vote for me, for us, for all that's good and holy! Yeah, that's so logical...

I super enjoy SUSD, and even Leigh to be honest... yes GG folks, I don't think she's the devil incarnate... gasp... I even bought a book of hers I think 2 years back. Anyway, they're all in the californication bubble about this. :) It's San Fran, London, Seattle / Vancouver and a bit of Toronto... it's group think, just like Idle Thumbs and a bunch other nice folk. Moral righteousness reinforcing intelectual arrogance, causing intolerance. I mean The Bay Area actually thinking they're the moral center of the US or the world... it would be immensely amusing, if it wasn't so tragic. They call it punching down in other contexts, but they won't see it right in front of their noses. And considering what they think of Hollywood, it's soooo ironic.

Edit: For readability. And since Vaina posted, let me add Berlin to the list... don't want him to feel excluded. I think it's Berlin... hipster and trendy I'm sure.
Post edited May 10, 2015 by Brasas
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Fever_Discordia: snip
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Brasas: And Fever, you pretty much said no one is trying to stop anything right? Reread Paul's conclusion:
So, if you were thinking about buying Cards Against Humanity, perhaps you should think again, because your money is an encouragement, your purchase is a statement and your playing is a representation. Personally, I am not remotely okay with Cards Against Humanity representing us. I hope a lot of other people aren’t, either. I hope they say so, too. That's not trying to stop sales? Honest and clear call of boycott I haven't seen :)
Anyway CAH only represents those that accept it. If Paul doesn't (because of his ethos) fine. If he wants everyone else to agree, he should go more into ethos, or actually offer data to his logical points, instead of trying to convince us his is the only logical possible conclusion. Do you see how subjectivity and ego, are basically turning reviewers into politicians instead of journalists? :) Vote with your wallet, but vote for me, for us, for all that's good and holy! Yeah, that's so logical...

I super enjoy SUSD, and even Leigh to be honest... yes GG folks, I don't think she's the devil incarnate... gasp... I even bought a book of hers I think 2 years back. Anyway, they're all in the californication bubble about this. :) It's San Fran, London, Seattle / Vancouver and a bit of Toronto... it's group think, just like Idle Thumbs and a bunch other nice folk. Moral righteousness reinforcing intelectual arrogance, causing intolerance. I mean The Bay Area actually thinking they're the moral center of the US or the world... it would be immensely amusing, if it wasn't so tragic. They call it punching down in other contexts, but they won't see it right in front of their noses. And considering what they think of Hollywood, it's soooo ironic.

Edit: For readability. And since Vaina posted, let me add Berlin to the list... don't want him to feel excluded. I think it's Berlin... hipster and trendy I'm sure.
So you guys are basically calling a bad review 'censorship' now? And you say that you don't overuse the term?
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Fever_Discordia: snip
Why are YOU bringing the word censorship into this? :) :) I thought you were better than this...

And why generalize to you guys? It's me Brasas... you know, the guy that keeps saying this is political, regardless of what GG folks maybe don't want to admit it. The guy that says this is all fundamentally about lack of objectivity, regardless of the antiGG guys not wanting to admit it...

I'm the guy that posted a bunch of quotes, to fairly represent what I disagree with... objectivity! The guy that is trying to engage you in good faith on harassment, since that's what you state is most important of this topic.

You said "stop", and I used the word boycott. Different concepts mate... different concepts. They can be related ofc...

Do you, or don't you see a call for stopping buying and stopping playing CAH in that quote? It's explicit even, though honestly the message of all three of them and Leigh is obvious: SUSD does not recommend CAH.

Duh...
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Fever_Discordia: snip
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Brasas: Why are YOU bringing the word censorship into this? :) :) I thought you were better than this...

And why generalize to you guys? It's me Brasas... you know, the guy that keeps saying this is political, regardless of what GG folks maybe don't want to admit it. The guy that says this is all fundamentally about lack of objectivity, regardless of the antiGG guys not wanting to admit it...

I'm the guy that posted a bunch of quotes, to fairly represent what I disagree with... objectivity! The guy that is trying to engage you in good faith on harassment, since that's what you state is most important of this topic.

You said "stop", and I used the word boycott. Different concepts mate... different concepts. They can be related ofc...

Do you, or don't you see a call for stopping buying and stopping playing CAH in that quote? It's explicit even, though honestly the message of all three of them and Leigh is obvious: SUSD does not recommend CAH.

Duh...
Sorry to confuse your stance with that of others around here with the 'c' word thing (no not THAT one - the one that ends in 'ship'!)
You're still basically saying that it's shocking that a bad review might have a negative effect on sales though o_O - every time PC Gamer gives a games a final rating below 50% it's basically saying 'PC Gamer does not recommend this game'
Post edited May 10, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
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Fever_Discordia: snip
I'm what? :D :)

Where did you get the word shocking from? I pretty much admitted I see a boycott as the intended effect of the CAH review done by SUSD... so in a way I think you're being euphemistic about "a bad review might have a negative effect on sales".

There is hardly any neutrality there, the intent is to stop people from buying and playing CAH. It's not about empowering the consumer, it's about telling them what they should do...

If anything shocks me it's how easy the paternalism appears. I've read these guys for ages. I remember their site move... I remember Matt not being around, and I saw how relationships formed. They're not evil people, and being totalitarian is the farthest from their mind (and yours)... groupthink... it's just the ideological bubble. I hope at least...

Had you missed my referring to agency and choice in my wall of text? "We" guys don't talk of liberty and ethics as shields. We mean it. It's to me amazing how far "you" guys can go to pretend it's all a smokescreen...

Anyway, I'm difficult to shock when it comes to this kind of stuff... my recent banning was a shock... and I've been around the block a few times... here in GOG these political topics started seeping in, slowly but surely. I don't even argue about DRM anymore... this stuff about incipient lack of tolerance and objectivity is much more socialy important IMO.

Stoic, you know... not easy, but I try... shocked, really? :D
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dragonbeast: and we are supposedly the ones with the political conspiracy theories?
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Fever_Discordia: I state that I think that feminism is generally and inherently on the left of the political spectrum, which seems fairly reasonable, and you call me a conspiracy theorist? Wut?
no
you state feminism is left that i see.
but you said standing against feminism brings politics into it. that is wrong. If i am against one aspect of the heavy left, i'm an extreme right winger? But at the same time I support healthcare so that should make me very left wing in that way of thinking. That makes me strong leftist and right winger?

Standing against absurd third wave "feminism" (not sure i can call this third wave crap feminism anymore) does not equal bringing politics into the mix

and no, moviebob was not correct in stating gg started out of far right wingers fear of Hillary running for president.


And face it, many like me dislike Anita's critique not because its a feminist or a women's critique (it's written by a male who is a confirmed loony after all), but because she pulls her arguments out her arse ("players are then encouraged to attack and kill the women" at the same time you see her getting -3000 points for taking one out), rips off the kickstarter supporters and then her writer and puppeteer Mcintosh continues to spout crap and shit on ANYTHING he can find.

remember, "feminism is not about choice and it's impossible to be sexist towards males".
Brasas, you should probably just stop with Fever. Fever already basically admitted to trolling us. In post 3255, Fever claimed to be providing "opposition" and that is exactly what he is doing. Disagreeing with anything he can. A troll just like Vain. Even when its shown that the anti's engage in censorship, here Fever is again dishonestly claiming how the word is overused, when Fever is fucking clueless as to its actual usage.

This quote from 3258 says it all, "I'm enjoying this as an intellectual exercise, a chance to practice and develop my debating skills, nothing more.." . I have advice for you, if you want to actually debate, then debate in honesty. A true debate is not trying to distort everything in the worst possible way. This is why you look like such an idiot in this thread. You have no integrity.

But seriously, as to Fever, quit feeding the troll. There is no point when you have people here just to start trouble and who aren't really interested in listening to what anyone else really has to say.
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Fever_Discordia: I state that I think that feminism is generally and inherently on the left of the political spectrum, which seems fairly reasonable, and you call me a conspiracy theorist? Wut?
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dragonbeast: no
you state feminism is left that i see.
but you said standing against feminism brings politics into it. that is wrong. If i am against one aspect of the heavy left, i'm an extreme right winger? But at the same time I support healthcare so that should make me very left wing in that way of thinking. That makes me strong leftist and right winger?

Standing against absurd third wave "feminism" (not sure i can call this third wave crap feminism anymore) does not equal bringing politics into the mix
Wait, I never said 'extreme' anything I was merely disagreeing with your statement:
"There is no left vs right here, if anything its authoritarian vs libertarian"

And yes, historically, by initially attacking Zoe from a something that could at least be construed as a 'slut shaming' angle and then going after feminist critique itself by attacking Anita you DID bring politics into it because pretty much the entirety of the mainstream left wing press, from Colbert to The Guardian immediately went against you and then, maybe following 'my enemy's enemy' thinking right wing guys like Breitbart and various MRA organisations (or are we going to have to argue where on the political spectrum MRAs lie now?) got behind you

I'm not saying that any individual on either side is necessarily a 'left-wing' or 'right-wing' person themselves but overall, GG has become a right-wing thing that is mainly countered by voices on the left

BTW, did you mean 'Libertarian'? Because, to me, despite the groovy sounding name, it's just synonymous with 'Tea Party'...

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RWarehall: Brasas, you should probably just stop with Fever. Fever already basically admitted to trolling us. In post 3255, Fever claimed to be providing "opposition" and that is exactly what he is doing. Disagreeing with anything he can. A troll just like Vain. Even when its shown that the anti's engage in censorship, here Fever is again dishonestly claiming how the word is overused, when Fever is fucking clueless as to its actual usage.

This quote from 3258 says it all, "I'm enjoying this as an intellectual exercise, a chance to practice and develop my debating skills, nothing more.." . I have advice for you, if you want to actually debate, then debate in honesty. A true debate is not trying to distort everything in the worst possible way. This is why you look like such an idiot in this thread. You have no integrity.

But seriously, as to Fever, quit feeding the troll. There is no point when you have people here just to start trouble and who aren't really interested in listening to what anyone else really has to say.
Except that just up there ^ in post 3291 Brasas pretty much agreed that 'boycott' does not equal 'censorship', a position that you accused ME of being 'stupid' for taking in post 3244!
So there :P
*troll, troll*

*edit* more of a combination of 3289 and 3291 actually - in 3289 he denies he's talking about 'censorship' and in post 3291 he asserts he's talking about a boycott and from that I infer that Braras does NOT equate 'Boycott' with 'Censorship'
Post edited May 10, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
Where does he say that? He doesn't...
But once again the troll tries to misconstrue the arguments here. Read what he says, he says the entire point of a boycott is to get people to stop buying and playing the game.

Furthermore, our discussion was about petitions to get GTA V banned in Australia and the Pillars of Eternity shit storm where threats were made to boycott the publisher. That is clearly an attempt at censorship. Fucktards publicly posting threads in these forums announcing every time they were cancelling a pre-order.

So yes, you ARE stupid for not acknowledging that the goal of a boycott is to censor content.

----

You are just not honestly engaging the discussion. You merely nitpick and argue over words while ignoring the overall concepts. You are playing the role of an ideological troll. The truth is that "review" CAH was not really a review. It had no intent to inform the public of the merits and detriments of the product. It's sole intent was to guilt people into avoiding the product. Might that review and its argumentation lead to an actual boycott attempt? Quite possibly. It will fail because of the popularity of the game, because the common people aren't always so easily manipulated.
Post edited May 10, 2015 by RWarehall
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RWarehall: Where does he say that? He doesn't...
Did you see my edit?
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RWarehall: Where does he say that? He doesn't...
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Fever_Discordia: Did you see my edit?
Do you not so where he states they can be related (boycotts and censorship)? Do you not see how what was done with Pillars of Eternity was directly intended to evoke the change of the games content? Both GTA V and Pillars are obvious cases of censorship. Period.

The CAH non-reviews are merely perfect examples of why reviews need more objectivity. One-sided ideological hit pieces are not reviews just like many of the non-reviews of certain video games were not really reviews.

-----

And for the record, Cards Against Humanity did in fact get censored by the no-fun police in 2014. More stupidity about "transphobia" leading to card removal. Note the link below who also calls this censorship. But maybe Fever knows better than the rest of the world as to what that word means...
http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/06/well-thats-it-for-cards-against-humanity.html#.VU99uPlVhBc
Post edited May 10, 2015 by RWarehall
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Fever_Discordia: snip
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Brasas: I'm what? :D :)

Where did you get the word shocking from? I pretty much admitted I see a boycott as the intended effect of the CAH review done by SUSD... so in a way I think you're being euphemistic about "a bad review might have a negative effect on sales".

There is hardly any neutrality there, the intent is to stop people from buying and playing CAH. It's not about empowering the consumer, it's about telling them what they should do...

IMO.
Sorry I think I was, once again confused that you were talking about a boycott but not talking about censorship as others here equate those 2 things together - see above ^

I agree that those guys are pretty extreme in their self appointed role as ' The PC Police'. But the line between a persuasive argument within a review that includes a moral dimention and inciting a boycott is pretty fine and therefore what you're talking about seems pretty contentious. How to you tell if consumers are not buying a product because a review said it was rubbish or are 'actively' boycotting it on moral or any other grounds, unless they're got placards and have formed a picket line in front of a store display or something?

A review is always, by definition, going to be an opinion piece and assessing whether a piece of art is moral or amoral is a legitimate criteria for review, it just sounds like you could end up in a witchhunt situation where reviewers feel like they can't use terms like 'I can't understand why anyone...' or 'I think any right-thinking person would agree...' or talk about whether they find anything amoral at all

Also in regard to CAH, if they're preaching to the faithful, it seems like a bit of a high-risk strategy because CAH are so simple and immediate - just looking at photos is going to tell you whether you're going to find them hilarious or offensive (not that those 2 things are necessarily mutually exclusive!) so if you're a SUSD congregation member but, looking at the images or even having played CAH in RL already and you naturally fall into 'unoffensive and hilarious' camp, well it's going to be a bit of a test of faith, isn't it?

Not that journo's over-confidence in having their audience in their thrall hasn't shot themselves in the foot in the past, mind - look at how #GG got started...
Post edited May 10, 2015 by Fever_Discordia
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Fever_Discordia: snip
There seems to be some misconception here.
Many (maybe even the majority, who knows?) pro-gg people are quite far left and corruption, sexism (yes indeed) and authoritarianism which they are mostly fighting against is quite conservative stuff.
The people you are talking about aren't actually leftists; do you ever see them talking about economic issues? What actual socialists feel towards "SJWs" is the same as what educated conservatives feel about illiterate racist rednecks - embarrassment. As can be seen everywhere around the net and this thread they are mostly fighting social justice indeed which gives the term a whole different meaning. All of this kind of people I've ever known and those I see in the net are clearly middle to upper middle class, white people who in most cases (unlike me) never experienced the stuff they are talking about first hand nor have any ideas about most dark realities.
I see myself as much more of a socialist (although I hate this term) and some of my views are quite radical in the eyes of most people when it comes to economical restructuring, yet I'd never use such methods. The end doesn't justify the means.

Looking closely at the methods it's not difficult to distinguish between those who want to change the system and those who just want to be in control of it.

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Fever_Discordia: snip
I think it's very sad that you see all this here as a trolling game / an exercise because it's quite serious stuff if you look at all the stalking, harrassing, doxxing, censoring, calumny, threats, etc... this topic is including.
If you want to exercise, better choose a less serious topic and if it comes to exercising honest discussion (which is no game and won't hurt anybody) try Brasas whom you are mostly ignoring.
Post edited May 10, 2015 by Klumpen0815
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dragonbeast: and that final solution part? for real man?
I don't believe anti-Gamergate realizes that when they make such extreme statements, it becomes harder to take them seriously. It also shows that there is simply no discussion to be found with some people, as they only want a boogeyman to paint as evil for their own personal moral crusade. It is kind of sad, since it hinders any real debate.

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Fever_Discordia: And yes, Anita Sarkessian is one of the first journalists to bring feminist critique to the sphere of computer games
She really didn't though, at least in my opinion. The most she did was grab a list of tropes, find which ones matched the angle she wanted, and tried to disingenuously make an example out of video games. She misrepresents the medium because she is not actually researching it, and instead takes parts of games out of context or outright lies about them. This isn't feminist critique, this is how to make a name for herself fast while marginalizing a group nobody cared about.

I find her particularly frustrating because as a female gamer for just about three decades, I am fully aware of some of the problems that exist and there are some areas that need legitimate discussion. What she has done is made that impossible, because look at what gaming has turned into now. Had things been handled with better care and respect, I have no doubt the community would have handled things differently.

As for the articles regarding Cards Against Humanity, I'm sorry if I repeat anything that has been said since I skimmed some of the longer posts. I think there is an important distinction to be made with some of this stuff. If someone doesn't like the game, that is perfectly fine and they can call it out for what they think it is. What I personally find unappealing is that it isn't just "this game is not cool," it is about shaming people who do like it. They are calling out white male designers and the white male consumers, and making people feel ashamed for laughing at an inappropriate joke.

Anyway, just my two cents. Also, everyone needs to stop posting so much while I sleep, too much to catch up on!