The following may appear at first blush to contradict my prior post, so bear with me.

I think your case is a good one on the whole, though I don't agree that BW has bought himself immunity going forward. Certainly, as the newb I'm coming at this without entirely knowing what the established community culture is, so I'm likely looking at it from a somewhat different angle, right or wrong. Since group dynamics are, well, dynamic rather than static there's no guarantee a gambit that worked in one game will work in another game, or even that they would work elsewhere in the same game. So even a smart player can make a dumb gambit, especially early in the game when there's little to go on, and even the tendencies of one's peers can't be entirely known. He wouldn't have known I would react in a level 2 fashion, would he?

Though I think the bigger counter-argument that he has a permanent free pass is that he himself has made the argument that his early slip was intentional as a conversation starter. Ok, conversation started (post 600 or so). While I can't speak for the rest of the "level 2 crowd" (yay! I joined a clique!), I don't see how he sells that going forward. Both because the argument itself doesn't work, and that he is on a somewhat shorter leash with most of us already than, say, Christi is, even if most of us haven't moved so far as to pile on the wagon. Yet.

And FWIW, I was somewhat carefully trying to imply that my vote for RW doesn't mean BW is off the hook, not even necessarily for day 1, just that with limited info to go on RW strikes me as a hair more likely to be guilty of the two. BW was far enough from L-0 that my vote at this stage was relevant only in how it might have prompted other voters to fall, not as a vote in and of itself. I'm still ranking BW as 'more likely to be guilty than average' based on his play so far.

Your approach seems binary, with the proposition that he's either guilty or else he got a free pass! Gdmmt, people, how could you!"

Which isn't at all how I approach the game. He moved up my list, sure, just not far enough that I'm ready to cast the stone. Even if he survives day 1 he'll likely be going into Day 2 higher up my list. It's an interesting gambit, if true. If he can survive the town vote, he's made himself suspicious enough that he may have lowered his priority as an NK target, unless they think it's cover for him really being a high priority target so maybe they should kill him anyway, but maybe he's sacrificing himself and just want them to think that and OMG down the WIFOM slide we go... Not my problem, but I'm curious to see how it plays out.

His bigger problem, I think is that regardless of how town/mafia go, he's made himself look scummy enough to several people who clearly feel strongly about it, so he'd reeeeallly best hope none of them have a vigilante shot. So from that perspective, yeah, it was a risky play unless his goal all along really was to fall on his sword. Assuming he's a smart player, and that he'd at all thought it through, I have to tend to believe conversation was his plan, since he had to be aware he wasn't going to be able to dance that close to the edge and back off without some taint still on him.

I'm sure that's a mixed metaphor, but I'd best get back to actual work and don't have time to patch it.

Ummmmm

...and I just realized my joke fell flat, because I thought you were intentionally mis-typing "RW" as "BW" because he kept calling you "bier". Sorry! Disregard that comment... duh, should have realized what "BW" meant. Too many acronyms.

Flub - mind! Gutter! Out!

My mistake, you are correct. Though I think my post 558 (part 3) makes clear that I didn't understand what you were getting at. That confusion led to a wrong conclusion as to what your insinuation was, which I compounded by thinking about it later away from the computer, rather than going back and re-reading what your argument was.

Mea culpa on that.

And with your post here I understand, ok, you didn't mean distancing. But now seemingly understanding what you did mean I'm still not sure what your point is. Can anyone post on anything that is not directly part of a current heated debate without it seeming a distraction?

I mean that as a serious question. It's a thread with 14 people posting, each of us with our own agendas. It's going to go multiple directions all at the same time. I've inserted myself once or twice into the Yog/JMich/BW debate, but it's not high on my priorities for crashing that party routinely, no.

I'm not under any illusion that my own posts on other topics are going to derail their debate, or even distract people from it for more than a minute, and that sometimes within spans of hours in which they aren't posting at all. Perhaps they are posting to distract people from our debate! Those fiends.

Or...you know, maybe we each really have our own issues and priorities and agency to express it. Given that it's a three-way fight, I'm not sure who it would benefit even had I the power to meaningfully distract or derail.

/shrug

Probably.

Yes.

No.

---------------------------------------------

Do I need to belabor my point further? I hope not, because connecting dots is so dreary.

My apologies for being so verbose, everyone, while I attempt to avoid death. Yes, I know I did it to myself, but please bear with me.

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I set aside a response to RW's post earlier, so I didn't lose it. Forgot to go back and post it though, so here it is.

I can see your point, though I don't agree with it. I don't think a vague statement means that someone isn't being truthful.

I think I was very transparent about leaving my alignment in doubt. I've also sometimes been excessively blunt when stating I'm town. It isn't a lie, because I am town, though it pings the lie radar because "if he is being truthful, why would he emphasize it so much?"

I've also been pretty transparent in saying that I'm doing these things deliberately, so YOU are going to have to decide for yourself whether to believe what I've said or whether to believe I'm lying outrageously.

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Define "free pass" for me? I think several players have decided to wait and see how things pan out. I think if I screw things up later, especially on accident, my ass is grass and someone else's name is John Deere.
...that phrase works better if I have a specific name to put there.

Lets say that I make it out of Day 1 alive, then appear scummy on accident during on Day 2. You're going to be all over me (again), this time with more ammunition. Especially if my slip isn't an obvious attempt to look scummy. Same applies on later days, especially as the number of people dwindles.

Then there is also the case that I might very well be the default choice later in the game, if people can't agree on anyone else. Take a look at CSPVG's vote plan.

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I pretty much agree with yogsloth on this, though if it came down to Sage or me, I'd vote Sage.

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I guess I'll have to take a dive or two then, to convince people that I may decide to willfully act differently from game to game, regardless of my alignment.

Ah. In that case, yes, I agree there is a difference. Deliberately appearing scummy is taking an active hand in controlling what one can control. Just being neglectful isn't exercising that control.

Perhaps. I tend to doubt it, because then people would be asking "Why are you ignoring the question?", but maybe you are right. I think people would have more firmly associated it as a scum slip. I couldn't ever admit to the "mistake" without lying, so the suspicion would just sit and maybe build.

Perhaps this whole tactic of mine was a terrible idea and will ultimately spell town's doom. If so, I've learned something new. Currently, it seems to be working out (except for just how close I am to dying; I didn't intend to get this close).

Counter Example. I skipped the self confessed serial killer, since iirc he was outted by a cop first.

Rofl. I'll have to go check it out at some point.

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Aaaaand I now realize I forgot to factor something in. Bit late to undrop the bomb, I guess.

Ahhh, the ancient Kingdom of Bellabor. Where the rivers sparkle and the dewdrops taste like wine. Lost to the mists of time; how we yearn for thee.


Totally on the side of things, but yes, go read that game. It's one of my favorites I worked through as a newbie. A great example of how to actively and creatively mod a game.

Rofl - indeed.

Um, well...good luck with that!

Good point/counter-point between yogs and bler in #596 and #601.

Of the lynch candidates with more than one vote: (I'm currently not overly suspicious of anyone with 0-1 votes)

JMich – JMich’s reason to vote on Bookwyrm initially threw me. While I don’t like the motivation, I find his explanations and reasoning since then convincing.

RWarewall – I don’t see this. Perhaps it is from lack of interaction. In my first game (the milk one), he was lynched D1 as a SK (investigated by yogs on N0). I watched the Stalker game, don’t think he was around for much of that either. If someone can make this case more clear, I will reconsider.

Sage – I can sort of see this, but it seems weak. I would vote for Sage to avoid a no-lynch.

Bookwyrm – I am placing my vote, at least initially, with Bookwyrm. Primarily, I think it’s possible that this is Book’s first time as scum. The over-the-top antics were purposeful. I lean toward him playing this as scum and not town. Secondary, if he is town, for me personally, his play (at least to this point) has done more harm than good. An analogy comes to mind: You’re driving a car and trying to keep your eyes on the road. Plays like Kryspn’s in general or JMich’s vote might turn my head to the side momentarily, but I still have the road partly-to-mostly in view. With Bookwyrm, I’m turning around to see what’s behind me, I do not see where I should be looking because of the distraction.

Vote: Bookwyrm

I'd been just about to comment on how oddly quiet it had gotten in here when you posted.

RW - probably not. I've already said my view that it's barely more than a hunch to bump him above average, and nothing particularly concrete. Not likely to sway anyone. I'd wager Kryp's view is more carefully considered, and thus more likely to be persuasive, but I wouldn't hold my breath that he's going to lay cards on the table at this point. Maybe once a deadline posts? Stills seems doubtful.

Sage I thought started strong but seems to have drifted off a bit. I don't personally have enough there that I'd be likely to come over to voting for her in D1. JMich I've already said I've put in the safe deck for D1, since while I hear the suspicions raised, none of them resonate with me as particularly actionable, at least at this stage.

Interestingly, you were the person early in the game I thought I would model my own play after since I very much admire the way you frame arguments (though it's occurred to me you would be in the top 3 most dangerous if you were mafia). Clearly I have settled into something a bit less deliberate, and given my history in other threads, I probably should have anticipated that full 100% deliberate was probably never realistic as a participatory model.

But the point is that I do quite admire your arguments here, even if I don't play quite the same way. Food for thought (for me) as the rest of the day plays out. Thanks for weighing in.

Looks like I picked a good day to start sniffin' glue.

I already posted the reasons I voted for RWarehall. Other reasons may have manifested since, but the initial reasons are still valid.

Read the last game; she was Mafia in that one.

Careful! Before you know it, you';; be huffing paint just to get the same high!

Go back and read through a bunch of old posts? Awww....man. I was afraid you were going to say that.

Go back and read through a bunch of old posts? Awww....man. I was afraid you were going to say that.

Unvote Trent.
Vote JMich.

No one else has any interest in Trent at all right now, and I'm not as sure of him either.

I think JMich is taking advantage of an easy lynch, and setting up for one or two more.

I think one or two scum are pushing for my lynch, and I think one or two scum are pushing for something besides my lynch. I think there are 4-5 scum.

I'm willing to switch to RWarehall. If it comes down to me or Sage, I'll switch to Sage (naturally).

Thank you, that was very nice of you to say. My best advice is to play the game your own way and have fun with it. Which you seem to be doing.



Perhaps something like this ;-)