Let's just say if I post a specific applicable law and you post a FAQ document that probably was not even written by a lawyer I know which one I would trust more ;-).

It is stated in the JMStV itself the KJM only posted that information in their words. You are STILL trying to make my posts look bad even if they include official sources... well that is troll/childish behavior.

You have torn the comment out of context but also demonstrating the problem behind. :-)

GOG ist bei seinem Verkauf an deutsche Kunden an deutsche Gesetze gebunden und begibt sich mit dem vVrkauf von Kingpin, SIN usw. ohne eine Alterskontrolle with POST-Ident in den Bereich der Illegalität.
Zu fordern, dass sie dies auch mit mehr Spielen tun, erscheint mir... seltsam.

Dass die deutschen Gesetze in Polen nicht durchgesetzt werden können, steht auf einem völlig anderen Blatt Papier.
Anwendbarkeit =/= Durchsetzbarkeit

GOG wird seine Gründe haben, warum sie das Risiko bei einigen Spielen eingehen und bei anderen nicht. Zu behaupten, was GOG tut (und täte, wenn sie region-locked Spiele freigeben würde) ist legal, ist simple falsch.

Leute als Pseudojuristen und Trolle zu bezeichnen, besonders nachdem sie deutlich mehr Sachverstand als du bewiesen haben (und bei einigen bekannt ist, dass das "Pseudo" nicht zutrifft) , unterstützt deine Meinung im Übrigen nicht im geringsten.

Well then you should have no problem posting that part of the JMStV instead of a bloody FAQ that you keep reading out of context, right?

Look, you seem unable to distinguish between

-the question of geographical applicability of the JMStV (only Germany obviously),
-the question whether a crime has happened "in Germany" in that sense (can also be the case if the crime is committed outside of Germany if the outcome of the crime happens to happen in Germany - stupid example: shooting someone in Germany from behind the French border would be punishable under German law even if the action actually happens "in France")
-and the question if German authorities can mete out punishments for the crime (only if the country in which the action happens cooperates or the persons travels to/has holdings in Germany).

Look, you're a Law & Economics guy. That's great and means you have a basic grounding in law. However that course of study mostly covers civil law and usually ignores the more formal parts of the law (like purely procedural law). You just might not be as knowledgeable here as you think you are ...

And calling me a troll after these comments: seems kind of cheeky :D. You're insulting a number of posters (Piranjade for example) who are, frankly, both better informed and better educated / qualified regarding the matter than you .


EDIT for clarification: The "räumliche Geltungs- bzw. Anwendungsbereich" which Kraut keeps referring to in the FAQ is the area covered by German law. And yes, the JMStV only applies within the German borders. However, it is quite possible for German law to decide that a crime committed outside the physical territory of Germany has actually been committed inside of Germany for legal purposes. The typical example are ships in international waters which are not inside of Germany but are covered by German law. §9 StGB (which also applies to the JMStV) rules that crimes committed outside of Germany whose results (in this case the endangerment of minors) happen inside of Germany have legally been committed on German soil. And that's why GoG is treading carefully.

I'll quote Breja: It's a store, not the true king of Albion, and those people happen to be customers.

I applaud idealism but for frock's sake this is just a shop where I buy games just like I buy my groceries at Tesco. Not something I'd live and die for. There are more important matters worthy of my idealism.

Have you ever tried to type "google.com" into your adress bar? Do you know where you'll end up? At google.de! You have to enter google.com/ncr (ncr = no country redirect) to stay at google.com - that's not something the average user does (or even knows). Google's marketshare in Germany is at roughly 95% ( and [url=http://www.seo-united.de/suchmaschinen.html]source). Getting kicked out of google.de means to get kicked out of Germany.

Furthermore you can get convicted of something in Germany even if you're not in Germany and don't have any corporate presence in Germany. Believe me, I'm a German in Spain and run various websites targeted towards the German market. It's abundantly clear that my websites are built for Germans thus I have to abide to German laws (Impressum, Haftungsausschluss für gelinkte Inhalte, and all kinds of other bullshit). And as I said in an earlier post: German language and the payment option "Sofort" are seen as very strong indicators that you're actively targeting German customers. And then there's the little detail that GOG already "admitted" that they are targeting the German market. Why else did they hide Commandos from Germans?

What you mean is, that any court decision (regarding this) isn't enforceable outside of Germany. Poland and Cyprus wouldn't care at all, so GOG wouldn't have to fear anything. As long as they don't put a foot into Germany. So no more Gamescom for GOG ;) And being a sentenced lawbreaker might be a hindrance to get deals with German companies (Deep Silver, Piranha Bytes).

No, GOG doesn't have much of a choice. Selling indexed games is kind of a grey area (it isn't forbidden, but not quite legal either), but selling games with verfassungsfeindlichen Symbolen to Germans is definitely something you want to avoid.

So if you aren't wearing one of these (see attached photo), the law doesn't apply? Bugger no wonder the Australian version of these laws applies to me, given I wear this outfit(see other attached photo) daily :D

Anybody knows why Bethseda don't ask the BPjS or the USK (whoever is responsible) to look at the Quake games again and give them a new rating? There must be a way to do that (It happened with other games in the past) and somehow I doubt that they would get indexed again (I guess they would get a USK16 rating).

Too expensive and work-intensive for old or non-top-tier titles frankly. Media lawyers don't come cheap.

Heh :-). To be more exact, German law applies if the product is delivered to Germany (§9 StGB) or if the minor is German and local laws also penalize the deed (§7 StGB). So (depending on Polish law) GoG could sell to a German minor as long as he was within the Polish borders at the time but not to an Australian living in Germany.

Apart from that real.geizterfahr got it just right. Yes, technically selling international versions in Germany is also illegal just like driving slightly over the speed limit is. But there is illegal and illegal. Doing 80 in front of a Kindergarden while blasting techno at 120db is another matter entirely than speeding slightly and will get you slapped down hard.

So Nazi stuff is just right out. And if a publisher says they care about the legality, GoG has to heed that. "But we got away with it in all those other cases" is just not a proper response if you are more than five years old.

Zu verteidigen, dass sie dies bisher tun aber mit bestimmten neuen Spielen plötzlich nicht mehr und weiterhin die alten anbieten, erscheint mir... seltsam

Wenn GOG mit Quake2/3 korrekt handelt dann betreiben sie hier schon lange einen illegalen Shop. Punkt, aus, fertig.

What a joke... Why did they let rate other old titels again?

If GOG acts right with Q2/3 they already have an illegal shop here in Germany.

Daran gibt es aus meiner Sicht kaum etwas zu rütteln.

Um ein Beispiel zu bringen:
Ein 16jähriger geht in Deutschland in einen Supermarkt und kauf einen Flasche Wodka.
Am nächsten Tag kommt er wieder und will eine Flasche Schnaps kaufen. Ihm wird vom Laden mitgeteilt, dass ihm der Schnaps nicht verkauft wird, weil er noch keine 18 ist und ihn deshalb nicht kaufen dürfe. Der 16jährige erklärt daraufhin, dass er doch gestern Wodka gekuaft habe und den hätte man ihm doch wohl auch nicht geben dürfen. Der Laden zuckt mit den Achseln und sagt, Wodka würde man ihm auch heute verkaufen, Schnaps nicht.

Ähnlich ist es hier. Was GOG in Bezug auf etliche andere Spiele (z.B. Kingpin, Sin, Indie and the Emperor's Tomb) und in Deutschland ansässige Kunden macht, ist illegal.
Der Verkauf von Quake 2/3 und Wolfenstein wäre genauso illegal.
Aus einer strafbaren Handlung ein Anrecht auf eine weitere abzuleiten, funktioniert aber nicht.

Was zumindest für Titel wie Quake 2/3 funktionieren würde, wäre die Einführung eines Indentifizierungsverfahrens wie Post-Ident (gibt es einen wishlist entry für).

Die andere Möglichkeit, wenn man möchte, dass GOG sich legal verhält, ist halt, noch mehr Spiele für Kunden in Deutschland mit einem regionlock zu versehen.

Repeating this again and again and again will only result in one of these three scenarios:

1. GOG will ignore it.
2. GOG will convince Bethesda's lawyers that they'll get no trouble with German authorities when they sell Q2+3.
3. GOG will block Bloodrayne, Postal and lots of other games for Germans too.

If 1. happens (99% chance), all the crying was a waste of time. If 2. happens (0.0000001% chance)... Nah, forget it, 2. won't ever happen. And if 3. happens (0.9999999% chance), you just did your part to turn things to shit for yourself.

My advice? Be happy that you guys are not vocal enough to make GOG look into this! Should they ever decide to listen to your "If Q2+3 can't be sold to Germans, then..." argument and decide that it's necessary to take some action, chances are almost non-existant that GOG manages to convince Bethesda of anything. So guess what GOG will do instead ;)

It might cost some thousand dollars, but on the other hand they would get access to a market of several million gamers again. And additional positive publicity which might be even more important.