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General discussionFrontier have decided to make Elite Dangerous online only.(608 posts)(608 posts)
(608 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 17, 2014
Having an installer != DRM free. A game can be DRM free without an installer and can have an installer without being DRM free.

"It is a self contained unit. It can be moved between devices and used in said devices without *any* restriction and it can be backed up. Simple as that. "

Plenty of games on Steam can be "moved between devices" and backed up without any kind of restrictions.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Kristian
Posted November 17, 2014
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Kristian: Having an installer != DRM free. A game can be DRM free without an installer and can have an installer without being DRM free.

"It is a self contained unit. It can be moved between devices and used in said devices without *any* restriction and it can be backed up. Simple as that. "

Plenty of games on Steam can be "moved between devices" and backed up without any kind of restrictions.
Obviously having an installer isn't equal too DRM free. Only if your reading comprehension is severely impaired could you have come to that conclusion in *this*' thread.

That's what this whole thread is about. That the game in question, which clearly has freely available installers, needs account authentication and constant server connection to function and thus up to its shoulders in DRM.

As for your last claim, as naive as it is, it doesn't support your case at all. You just left out the most important criteria: it is self contained. It means that it never, ever - at no moment - needs any authentication to work. Steam rentals need that the first time they install. The game may or may not be a portable app that doesn't use Steamworks, but sorry it's 100% DRM.

After authentication some games can be backed up and copied to other systems, such as DOS based games, some indie games and the like, but you could never set it up to begin with without Steam phoning home, authenticating and activating.

That is DRM. There are no DRM free games on Steam.

An audio CD never needs to phone home the first time you use it. That is DRM free.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Atlantico
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: Obviously having an installer isn't equal too DRM free. Only if your reading comprehension is severely impaired could you have come to that conclusion in *this*' thread.

That's what this whole thread is about. That the game in question, which clearly has freely available installers, needs account authentication and constant server connection to function and thus up to its shoulders in DRM.

As for your last claim, as naive as it is, it doesn't support your case at all. You just left out the most important criteria: it is self contained. It means that it never, ever - at no moment - needs any authentication to work. Steam rentals need that the first time they install. The game may or may not be a portable app that doesn't use Steamworks, but sorry it's 100% DRM.

After authentication some games can be backed up and copied to other systems, such as DOS based games, some indie games and the like, but you could never set it up to begin with without Steam phoning home, authenticating and activating.

That is DRM. There are no DRM free games on Steam.

An audio CD never needs to phone home the first time you use it. That is DRM free.
As I said, you were going to harp on the first install technicality. Which in itself is meaningless since the point is that after that moment you have the game, drm-free. It's little different from the first time you download your game from GOG. You *have* to use a browser (third party client) to go to GOG.com and you *have* to log into your account. To download the game. Both of these require internet and authentication at the time of you acquiring the game. This is exactly the same with Steam (The client replacing the 3rd party browser step), except at the moment you finish downloading it automatically sets up the game for you.

If that's the difference between DRM-Free and not DRM-free for you then it's an incredibly minor technical aspect you're harping on, one that *practically* makes little to no difference.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Pheace
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: Obviously having an installer isn't equal too DRM free. Only if your reading comprehension is severely impaired could you have come to that conclusion in *this*' thread.

That's what this whole thread is about. That the game in question, which clearly has freely available installers, needs account authentication and constant server connection to function and thus up to its shoulders in DRM.

As for your last claim, as naive as it is, it doesn't support your case at all. You just left out the most important criteria: it is self contained. It means that it never, ever - at no moment - needs any authentication to work. Steam rentals need that the first time they install. The game may or may not be a portable app that doesn't use Steamworks, but sorry it's 100% DRM.

After authentication some games can be backed up and copied to other systems, such as DOS based games, some indie games and the like, but you could never set it up to begin with without Steam phoning home, authenticating and activating.

That is DRM. There are no DRM free games on Steam.

An audio CD never needs to phone home the first time you use it. That is DRM free.
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Pheace: As I said, you were going to harp on the first install technicality. Which in itself is meaningless since the point is that after that moment you have the game, drm-free. It's little different from the first time you download your game from GOG. You *have* to use a browser (third party client) to go to GOG.com and you *have* to log into your account. To download the game. Both of these require internet and authentication at the time of you acquiring the game. This is exactly the same with Steam (The client replacing the 3rd party browser step), except at the moment you finish downloading it automatically sets up the game for you.

If that's the difference between DRM-Free and not DRM-free for you then it's an incredibly minor technical aspect you're harping on, one that *practically* makes little to no difference.
Yes I was going to harp on the first install, because it isn't a technicality. The download itself is a complete technicality. Irrelevant, it doesn't even need to be a download. Steam can install fine from optical media.

It phones home, authenticates your account credentials and then installs and activates the game. No matter where the data is acquired from.

Comparing that to gog.com is naive, gog.com doesn't need a particular browser. Steam does. In fact it need a particular client. You know that. I'm not explaining this like you're a retard, you can figure it out.

So no, this is not exactly like Steam in any way shape or form. The download itself is irrelevant, the authentication and activation of the install is the relevant part.

That is one difference between DRM and DRM free. There are many.

The audio CD never needs to authenticate before use. Not when you buy it, not when you borrow it, not when you use it on a different device than usual. That is DRM free.

Same with gog.com games. Not so with Steam. Because Steam is DRM.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Atlantico
Posted November 17, 2014
I wonder why people always have to argue about the exact definition of Digital Rights Management. Does it really matter?

You have to install the Steam client at least once on one system, in order to play your copy of the game. Some think that is acceptable, others think it's not. And that's it.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Urnoev
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: The download itself is irrelevant, the authentication and activation of the install is.

That is one difference between DRM and DRM free. There are many.
And the whole point here is that as soon as you've done that first time install, it's DRM-Free. From then on, till forever. It's a meaningless thing to argue. You can get the game completely DRM-Free by buying it from Steam, all you have to do is install it once, which if you do that at the time of the download is practically a meaningless difference.

The whole reason to argue Callback on installation is DRM is because the assumption is you will *always* have to do that. Every time you want to install the game. That's why it's considered DRM. If the callback disappears from the question after a first installation it's meaningless.
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico:
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Urnoev: I wonder why people always have to argue about the exact definition of Digital Rights Management. Does it really matter?

You have to install the Steam client at least once on one system, in order to play your copy of the game. Some think that is acceptable, others think it's not. And that's it.
In the context of this thread, the developer of Elite Dangerous promised backers on a certain level a physical DRM free copy.

That's why the definition is important, at least in this discussion. I'd say that they broke their promise most egregiously by forcing always online gameplay, even in single player, tied to an account.

That's DRM. Thus a broken promise. A DRM free copy would not need any authentication ever. That's where the similarities between Steam and this thing come in and the Steampologists swarm in.
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Atlantico: The download itself is irrelevant, the authentication and activation of the install is.

That is one difference between DRM and DRM free. There are many.
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Pheace: And the whole point here is that as soon as you've done that first time install, it's DRM-Free. From then on, till forever. It's a meaningless thing to argue. You can get the game completely DRM-Free by buying it from Steam, all you have to do is install it once, which if you do that at the time of the download is practically a meaningless difference.

The whole reason to argue Callback on installation is DRM is because the assumption is you will *always* have to do that. Every time you want to install the game. That's why it's considered DRM. If the callback disappears from the question after a first installation it's meaningless.
No, not really meaningless at all. You've certainly retroactively severed the ties between the game installation and the client. Which is commendable, in the handful of cases where that's possible.

But now you can't update the game. Take FTL for instance, available on Steam from release and yes you could have severed it from the client. And if you did, you could not update it to the new Advanced Edition. There's no mechanism to do that, because everything goes through the Steam DRM client.

This can be a very practical question, not irrelevant at all. You are handicapped with your Steam "DRM-free" copy, because in the end, DRM is so much more than just copy protection.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Atlantico
Posted November 17, 2014
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chalice: No need for an account, Ian Bell is your friend :)

http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/index.htm
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Grargar: Thanks, but which one of ? :P <a href="http://www.gog.com/forum/general/frontier_have_decided_to_make_elite_dangerous_online_only/post100" class="link_arrow"></a></div> I vote for [url=http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/pc/index.htm]Elite Plus for PC, as it is one of the few versions with analog joystick support (along with the older wireframe PC version, and possibly the Acorn Archimedes version). That makes a big difference especially when docking manually. Just run it in DOSBox, the instructions talking about slowing down your PC are apparently meant for trying to run the game directly from e.g. Windows 9x.

It also has pretty good title music, due to Roland CM-32L/LAPC-1 support (use Munt emulator), the best rendition of the Blue Danube I recall hearing in any Elite version. And the sound effects were also ok with Roland. Naturally the game supports also Adlib/Soundblaster, with less impressive sounds. I don't recall the game supporting sampled sound effects, so with Soundblaster you just get basic Adlib OPL-2 FM synth sounds, not super realistic explosions and such.

I find the Elite Plus PC graphics also superior to e.g. the Amiga version, which is the version I've played the most. And the Amiga version didn't have analog joystick support either IIRC.

The page says Acorn Archimedes version is regarded as the best version by many, and apparently is has been patched too to support (analog?) joysticks, but I have no idea of Archimedes emulation. The page suggests there is an Archimedes emulator, but it lacks audio.

EDIT:

Elite on Acorn Archimedes

Elite Plus on PC (with inferior Adlib music and sounds)

Elite on Amiga
Post edited November 17, 2014 by timppu
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: But now you can't update the game. Take FTL for instance, available on Steam from release and yes you could have severed it from the client. And if you did, you could not update it to the new Advanced Edition. There's no mechanism to do that, because everything goes through the Steam DRM client.
Yes, to get an update you'd download the updated game instead of download an update to install. Even GOG doesn't always give you the option for the latter, they sometimes only give the option of an updated installer.

Although there's a practical difference in that you're guaranteed to have to do so for Steam, if you're going to argue that's DRM then only having an updated installer on GOG pretty much comes down to the same thing. Again, the real difference comes down to whether you accept the first time install or not.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Pheace
Posted November 17, 2014
Come on guys, this is the Elite hate thread,not a steamer.


More fun stuff:

You cant really use GoG as an example. They don't make games, they buy up licences from what is essentially "abandonware", and then sell them on (after a bit of fiddling with DosBox, that pretty much anyone can do themselves). GoG aren't concerned with DRM as it would be a huge undertaking to add it, and the prices of their games are so low that it just isn't worth the effort.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=59214&amp;p=1015145&amp;viewfull=1#post1015145
Posted November 17, 2014
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shane-o: ... "It's not a decision we took lightly. We would much rather keep everyone happy (if such a thing were possible), but trying to do an offline version compromises what we're doing with the online version and we have said from the very beginning that is how we intended the game to be played. Of course some people are upset by the decision, we're not happy with it either but it's the decision we've had to make for the good of the game" ...
I understand their decision but I also think they should have made up their mind much earlier, before they asked for money. This now looks a bit unprofessional. As it is they cannot deliver a quite important feature and that decreases the value of the product for some. This is unfair.

According to the TOS of KS (at least in the old form) they should offer a refund to everyone who wants it and backers who were looking forward to the offline mode should definitely ask for it. Then if everyone of the backers who disagrees is paid out they can continue making the game in whatever form they see fit if there is enough money left.

Have refunds already been granted?
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Trilarion
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58789&amp;p=1002307&amp;viewfull=1#post1002307

Looks like refunds are on a case-to-case basis. That's unfortunate. A refund is not guaranteed.

Fuck those DRM microtransaction EA/Ubi wannabees.
Has this changed in the mean time? Problem is that the new Terms of Service of Kickstarter are very ambigous in this regard. They need to make "an honest effort to come to the best possible solution" now (whatever this really means - not much I guess) while in the former version of the ToS they just had to deliver the product as promised or pay back the money which was much clearer.

One could probably argue quite well that the value of the product is decreased by omitting the offline mode. This is kind of unfair one-sided change of the initial agreement. A refund should be the decent thing to do.

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Urnoev: I wonder why people always have to argue about the exact definition of Digital Rights Management. Does it really matter?

You have to install the Steam client at least once on one system, in order to play your copy of the game. Some think that is acceptable, others think it's not. And that's it.
Not only that but also Steam authentificate you online and checks before every install or patching of each game. I agree with: some find it acceptable other not, but one definitely needs to add the online checks in order to characterize the DRM part of Steam fully. Just installing the client is usually not enough.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Trilarion
Posted November 17, 2014
For anyone wondering, if you kickstarted or pre-ordered the game in reliance on the representation that the game was playable offline and DRM free, you are almost certainly entitled to a full refund under UK law (I assume Frontier is a UK company).

See for example:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811574/regulation/5
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58789&amp;p=1002307&amp;viewfull=1#post1002307

Looks like refunds are on a case-to-case basis. That's unfortunate. A refund is not guaranteed.

Fuck those DRM microtransaction EA/Ubi wannabees.
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Trilarion: Has this changed in the mean time? Problem is that the new Terms of Service of Kickstarter are very ambigous in this regard. They need to make "an honest effort to come to the best possible solution" now (whatever this really means - not much I guess) while in the former version of the ToS they just had to deliver the product as promised or pay back the money which was much clearer.

One could probably argue quite well that the value of the product is decreased by omitting the offline mode. This is kind of unfair one-sided change of the initial agreement. A refund should be the decent thing to do.

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Urnoev: I wonder why people always have to argue about the exact definition of Digital Rights Management. Does it really matter?

You have to install the Steam client at least once on one system, in order to play your copy of the game. Some think that is acceptable, others think it's not. And that's it.
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Trilarion: Not only that but also Steam authentificate you online and checks before every install or patching of each game. I agree with: some find it acceptable other not, but one definitely needs to add the online checks in order to characterize the DRM part of Steam fully. Just installing the client is usually not enough.
I don't know if anyone has received a refund yet, but I agree with you that the publisher should just refund to anyone who asks, without question and be done with it.

Their attitude so far has been "we'll review refund requests on a case by case basis", which is only an inch from flipping you the eagle IMO.

Their PR is a disaster and making that decision public only a few weeks before release is a douchbag move.
Posted November 17, 2014
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htown1980: For anyone wondering, if you kickstarted or pre-ordered the game in reliance on the representation that the game was playable offline and DRM free, you are almost certainly entitled to a full refund under UK law (I assume Frontier is a UK company).

See for example:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2008/9780110811574/regulation/5
+1
Thanks for this!

Going to post the link in the ED forums.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionFrontier have decided to make Elite Dangerous online only.(608 posts)(608 posts)
(608 posts)