Well, day 2 is a lot rosier!

You missed something...
Did you not think about looking up "Ascetic" after RFG flipped?

From Mafia Wiki:
"An Ascetic role cannot be targeted by anything other than a kill. A role attempting to target an Ascetic should be seen doing so by Trackers and Motion Detectors, even though they would not be seen if they were directly roleblocked. Investigative roles (Cops, Role Cops, Watchers, etc.) should receive "no result" if attempting to investigate an Ascetic role."

You were blocked by RFG, although I guess it's possible other roles tried too.

I was also thinking about the lack of a 2nd kill Day 1. I kinda doubt they would forgo that for an investigation.
A couple possibilities...
1) Scum and RFG both targeted ZFR at the same time.
2) One or the other had their Day 1 kill blocked.
3) Off the wall, but there is no scum team, but just another anti-Town neutral of some sort?

But now that I think of it, that last one doesn't make sense. The OP states we have Kitsune. So we must have a scum team. Trent wouldn't bastard mod us that way.

Interesting flip yesterday. My first reaction was: two killing factions in such a small game are awfully hard to balance. By all likelihood we don't stand a chance if we lose two player per Night plus one possible (and on D1 likely) mislynch. So there must be an awful lot to balance that. And then I thought about all the ways how one could balance such a game. I'll come to that in a bit. But first:

@Joe: very nice to see that you start the Day in an analytical way and not in a playful nonsensical style.

Especially this one:
looks like a nice catch. I totally missed that yesterday. Can you point us to the relevant post for context? Also
@pooka: was that what you meant? You WANTED to scumread Joe but couldn't make a convincing argument? I mean, I did kind of scum-read Joe and I mostly town-read you for most of D2. But isn't wanting to scumread someone an automatic bias ... and something quite scummy at that?

@dedo:
you miss one important aspect. You weren't necessarily blocked. RFG flipped as Ascetic - and if you read up Ascetic on mafiascum, you'll see that such a person can't be targeted by anything but a killing action (NK or lynch). The wiki says that non-kill night-actions will 'fail as if they had been role-blocked'. So it may not have been another player who targeted you, but just the Ascetic property in action.

About whether to reveal whom you block-protected, that is really up to you, when you do that. It would be very important information. Especially since there is a good chance that that is our remaining scum. But as you say, it may also have been the target. ... I think you should reveal it some time during this Day. Everything else would be wasted information. But if you want to watch everyone for a while to gauge reactions, that also has it's merits and it is your call.

Now to scenario-speculations. That will take a while to write and I'll put it in the next post.

So. Onward to speculations how to balance a small game with two killing factions. These will contain stuff that others have written, because I try to think of everything.

The main problem is the speed with which MYLO can occur. 10 players with 2 Nightkills is over quickly. Assume 7 Town, 2 Mafia, 1 SK. One mislynch and 2 NKs later such a setup could be at 4 Town, 2 Mafia and 1 SK and the next Night could already lead to a game over, if no Mafia is killed. So there has to be some mechanic in play that makes it likely that there will only be one kill per night on average. It gets a bit better if it's just another lone Scum/SK, i.e. 8v1v1 at start. But not much. 3 kills per Day are still a quick game that is very hard for Town to win without a lot of balancing:

The most straightforward but hardest to control would be to put in lots of protective or preventive roles. Doctor, Jailer, Roleblocker... if this is the case, we just got lucky and had one prevented kill each Night. But such a setup would be quite swingy and a lot would depend on luck.

Another straightforward way would be one even-night killer and one odd-night killer. But I think that would have been included in the flip.

Or we have several bulletproof / one-shot bulletproof PRs. We have already seen that RFG was one-shot bulletproof. Which by the way makes him an awfully strong SK. Ascetic + bulletproof means invincible for one Night. ... And that might actually also be why we only had one kill in N1. Perhaps his one-shot bulletproof was only possible if he didn't kill in the same night. So maybe he decided to be invincible for one Night instead of killing. We know that he wasn't blocked or jailed, because that isn't possible against an Ascetic.

Actually this superpowered SK led me to an idea that a hypothetical second SK would have to be as powerful. Otherwise the setup would be unfair between these two. And if they are similar, then maybe the second SK chose tonight to use his non-kill power. Unlikely, since killing is the only way he could win (if he exists), but possible. So that's unfortunately a third possibility to dedo's "maybe protected the target, maybe blocked the killer" dilemma.

If it isn't a second SK but an actual Mafia-Team of 2, that just makes the balancing even more impossible. In my opinion only the odd-night/even-night mechanic would remain reliable for a 7v2v1 scenario. That might ALSO explain why there was no NK Tonight. Yesterday, Mafia killed and RFG couldn't. Today it would have been RFG's turn, but he was dead. But as I said, while I think the odd-night/even-night mechanic would be the most reliable balance for two scum teams, I also think that it should have been included in the flip if that were the case. It wasn't. So I assume for the moment that this isn't the mechanic in action here.

So unfortunately this is lots of speculation. I just wanted to throw all the ideas out there that I had when mulling over the flip at Night. Please read them and tell me what you think.

I didn't realize that was part of the role. I assumed that was the name of the Death character from Supernatural, but I guess he is just "Death".
Then it's clear why his jailing didn't go through (although flavor-wise it doesn't make a whole lot of sense - the reason was I wasn't able to find my tools).


That's the idea.

I considered this, I actually think I've seen this in a past game - two opposing killing factions had 1 shot invulnerability that was automatically active only on N1 to prevent themselves killing each other from the get go. But if the flavor is supposed to make ANY sense that setup (2 x SK of the same or similar type) kind of doesn't work as we know about Kitsune but didn't know about Death. Also, I'm not too familiar with Supernatural but I know there are the four horsemen and they are kind of special non-regular characters so it feels like someone like Death as an SK would be a one-off thing.

@Lift no, I did not "want to" scumread Joe. What I meant was that I wanted to believe the tricks themselves stemmed from a scummy playstyle without the catch that a town Joe also does them.

@dedo I'm not sure if your ability being blocked counts as using up a shot or not, but other than that, preferrably reveal the name you got late into the day. That said, as others have said, RFG was ascetic, meaning his kill went through your jail. Could be a doctor prevented the second kill on Night 1. I also take it you've still got issues regarding me? If so, now's a good time.

WAIT A MINUTE. This hinges on the flavor, but hear me out. Unless Death is also a kitsune for some reason, then
RFG killed nobody. ZFR's character had his gland missing (post 341), as well as claw marks. I don't think a scythe is capable of both of these. This seems to hint at a doctor (unless RFG targeted nobody for some reason).


I still don't like the whole presumptions thing at all, but I am feeling better about Joe now. I'd like to see blotunga and agent post before carrying on with the ISOs, the only two who have yet to post.

Thinking of game balancing and having all kinds of powers to compensate for the supposed multiple kills may really mean more protective roles. Which might mean my block neither saved my target nor prevented him from killing but someone else was responsible. Again, I suggest to twink twice before revealing any more information until we really need it.

As others and yourself suggested I most likely wasn't blocked but the Ascetic passive was what stopped me. Also, obviously it does not use up my shot as I said I blocked someone else on the following night, didn't I? Using my shot used up the shot.

I'm not sure about the last part. Why still having a problem with you is a reason to speed up my reveal?

@dedo and Pooka: flavourwise you are correct! Death is unique, one of the most powerful beings in the universe and definitely no Kitsune. In the beginning we were told that there were Kitsune-kills and ZFR was killed by a Kitsune.

So, just by flavour, RFG didn't commit the N1 kill. He either chose not to kill or the kill was prevented by a Doctor or someone who was one-shot bulletproof or something similar.

That still leaves the question open whether we have one Kitsune or an actual Mafia team of two Kitsunes. But at least it kills my 'second equally powerful SK' idea. By flavour, a Kitsune is by far not as powerful as Death.

First!

...on RFG's wagon, that is.

Interesting flip. Can't say I was expecting that.

Huh.

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Did Scum target RFG on N1? That would also explain the single-kill night.

Then N2, dedo hit scum?

I tend to agree with RW that there must be a scum team. If a 2-man scum team is too much, maybe it's a 1-man Scum team?

>_>

That makes no sense. A 1-man Scum team is basically just a neutral team.

Come to think of it, maybe trent is being a bit of a bastard. I have a bit of information which suggests something sketchy is going on.

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What makes you think that? Mafiascum.net explicitly calls out "Bulletproof" as a passive role. It seems like an awfully convenient reason for there to be a missing kill tonight.

Point in your favour is the limited one shot bulletproof. That probably points to some balance element.

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That indicates the kill was done by the Kitsune, yes?

And RFG was DEATH, so his kill would have been done with his scythe, no?

So maybe RFG's target was protected on N1 and dedo jailed Scum on N2?

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This post is a mess. I'm going to organize my thoughts and vote in another post.

@agent: exactly. The 'limited' points to some limitation.

I just had an idea about a flavour-fitting limitation for Death, that would also fix the balance. Death is no deranged killer. He just ensures the natural order. Beings have to die at the appointed time or the world descends into chaos. What if the 'limited' doesn't point to the bullet-proof, but to the killing part? The way I would do this as mod would be, that Death only kills when the 'naturally' occurring kill is prevented. I.e. the player of Death would target someone. If the Kitsune-kill goes through, nothing happens to Death's target. If the Kitsune-kill is prevented, the Death-target dies, to ensure the 'natural order' and the intended number of kills. That would elegantly solve the 'two killing factions' balance problem!

...but of course it's a bit convoluted, based on flavour and we have no way of knowing whether that was the case in N1. But it would be a good setup!

It is a one-shot after all so it might be a trade-off. Or the SK just didn't want to give up the information they exist by exposing a second kill too early on so RFG held off.

Clearly the Kitsune kill succeeded Night 1 from the flavor. Leaves the question where RFG's kill went.

1) He chose not to kill (if he had that option)
2) He was blocked in some way.
3) He also chose ZFR and found him dead already. Not sure how Trent might resolve multiple kills.

I highly doubt it is because he used "bulletproof"...

If I was Trent even if this wasn't true I'd go ahead say it was - this would be a really sweet way to explain the mechanic and would make flavor that much more interesting to follow.

Another possibility that might make sense in what you say about Death having to take people at the appointed time might mean he can only kill (or maybe has to?) on specific Nights. We've also had this in the past - killing factions that can only kill on a specific Night number or odd/even type of thing. Anyway, there is really no point in trying to figure this out as that problem has went away and we know the first kill was indeed Kitsune's. Going back to flavor, was the Kitsune a single entity in the show?

Sorry to go back to this but I thought about it more and the flavor on why my block failed on RFG because of his passive could make sense after all - he is in fact a Supernatural godlike (??) entity, so flavor-wise his passive may actually tampered with reality itself and made me lose my tools and only find them again in the morning.

EBWOP: All of my previous post is rehash. Should have refreshed before posting.

That's my gut reaction to "limited". I do like your idea, it's elegant.

When I've been SK, holding off my NK did not seem worth it to stay hidden for one extra day. You need to finish the game as quickly as possible to win as SK.

Never seen Supernatural, but does this make sense from a mafia perspective? Can a Scum team start out with only one person? That's basically just an SK.

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Night 1

ZFR was killed by a Kitsune. RFG did not kill anyone on N1. He wasn't blocked by dedo, though, so his kill must have been protected against or directed at ZFR as well.

If RFG's kill was protected against, we have a protective role.

Night 2

No kill. RFG is dead, so Scum's kill was protected against or prevented. It is possible that dedo blocked Scum, thus the kill didn't get through.

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I'd be inclined to vote for whoever dedo blocked, but that's not a possible course of action yet.

I want to hear from you. Assuming there was Scum on RFG's wagon, it's between you and Pooka in my eyes. Pooka has been more active than you and he's made a few good points. Any reason we shouldn't lynch you?

To give it a little weight, Vote blotunga.

What a reveal!
I wonder why one of the NKs in N1 didn't happen. RFG's kill didn't seem to go through so likely there is a bulletproof something. I wonder if he targeted a buletproof scum? Would be nice whom he targeted.
I don't think there are lots of buletproof townies so tonight's kill was likely prevented by dedo. We have a likely 50% chance of lynching scum if we lynch the jailee if all else fails (except ofc if the NK was stopped in some other way).

And a bit of IRL stuff
My kidneys are better, but life got a lot more complicated. Our second baby arrived on Saturday so I might be a bit more distracted than usual. I will try to keep up from my phone from time to time.