It's weekend and I'm on a large event again. I only have a short break before I go back on stage. So, I'll reply in detail tomorrow.
Agents claim seems true, an angel fits. and for now, in spite of Joe's doubt, I still see it as likely, that one of RW and agent is scum. Since I had to reconsider agent as town, that makes RW likely scum. He still is tied to the failed kill - and it wasn't agent who targeted him.

So for now:
Unvote agent
Vote RW

I don't like the claim for a number of reasons.
Castiel doesn't actually die in the show to protect people, he just heals. The other angels aren't for the most part "good guys" by any stretch of the imagination. So it doesn't fit well with the lore. It also seems a very convenient role for scum to fake breadcrumb. Since a Townie has to die to save another Townie, the net result is just a Townie killed as night and worse, we can more confused trying to guess who the real target was. In many ways, it's a role that works slightly against Town. As to a possible Doctor role, I've seen games with both Doctors and a Bodyguard. Bodyguards are hardly a good substitute.

That said, we have announced visits to people Night 1 and 2. I'll leave that open in case anyone can counter that claim.

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Then there is Lift...
Who has been pushing this a scum scenario all day. Now with the claim of yet another gimped (and possibly useless) Town role, he's now going all in on me. Who might target me? I read through Lift in games past. I'm seeing signs of scum Lift. Over buddying; coat-tailing on others analysis with a lot of devil's advocate but not really a lot of production Town thought; then actions that in whole don't match his analysis.

If there is one scum as Lift suggests, I could not be scum because you know what I did Night 1. We still don't know who killed ZFR. And the entire basis of his one scum theory is the weakness of the Town roles which took into account Agent having a useful power role, not acting as part of the Judean Crack Suicide Squad. I'm still not convinced we only have 1 scum, but for someone to be pushing that theory and responding to a weak role reveal ignoring the fact I couldn't do the N1 kill, that's too much of an inconsistency to me.

Vote Lift

I'm here and catching up.

It it wasn't obvious I meant to say "Why Lift instead of RW?"


We established that to be a mechanical impossibility. Unless he is indeed superpowered, was told he was blocked (and more importantly in what way) and was able to overcome the block and perform the Joe role read. Doesn't sound very likely. Also, I just went back to look at my flavor for something else and noticed that I was explicitly told I was successful in my jailing attempt.


What in this made you think the mod might be resorting to bastard features? How is a body guard making the setup weird?

If this is true, thanks!

Are you referring to the breadcrumbs? If yes, they mean exactly nothing until you choose to reveal them, so you didn't lock yourself into anything until just now.

Just to confirm - is you role Bodyguard or Angel?

Is that because I am so stupid that anything I say must be wrong? Or is it because I am so scummy that everything I say must be a lie? ... Oh, wait, since all scum are stupider than you are, it's probably both! But if I am so scummy in your eyes ...

Ah, there it is. Well, at least you are somewhat consequential now. But if you assume that RW and I are a scum-team, then why go after me and not after the one who was somehow tied to the failed NK? If the NK failed because RW was blocked, he is scum. If it failed because he was protected, he was last Nights target. So what is your theory here? RW and I are a team, but still I targeted him for some reason? Or is your theory that he was the one who tried to do the NK, but you don't want to lynch him ... why? Because you see a chance to go after me again? We'll have to talk post game a bit why you are so fixated on me. That's not healthy, you know?

For the record: I am totally willing to return the favour and lynch you. But I think mechanically we have the best chance of hitting scum by going after RW. As I explained before, he is tied to the failed NK. Agent's behaviour was scummy. Therefore my working theory was that he is the scum of these two and that RW was the target of agent's failed NK. It would (still) fit with the way how agent pushed RW's lynch and tried to establish the 'RW was blocked' part of what might have happened as the only option. However, after agent's claim looks genuine, the 'Agent targeted RW last Night' theory has to go out of the window. I believe the Angel part of the claim and I don't believe that in such a flavour heavy game an Angel can be scum. Even though there are antagonist angels in the series, that would be a third antagonist faction since the kill was definitely a Kitsune-Kill. Therefore, I decided to base everything on the assumption that agent is Town, even though he looks and feels scummy. ... And that leaves RW as the best option.


But I do wonder about Joe's motivation here for trying to start another lynch train on me. Successfully, as it seems. Joe started this, after I announced my opinion that one of Agent and RW has to be scum. So, Joe, did you forsee that Agent's claim would make my change my mind and you prepared the ground for shifting the focus to me to save your buddy RW? It looks like that. I don't see any other reason why you would pretend to believe in a RW+Lift team and still vote for the one of this team who wasn't connected to the failed NK. But with the assumption that you and RW are a team, your behaviour makes sense.

Well, Angels are a quite common theme in Supernatural and one Angel in particular is one of the most popular figures in the series. So there was bound to be an Angel in this game but more than one Angel would be unlikely, given the small size of the game. No, I don't think that Agent's Angel-claim was manufactured from the very beginning of the game. So I am quite convinced that his Angel-claim is true.

But Joe wanting to reveal the rest of the PRs fits the theory that he is scum. ... Together with you, if there are two scum left. Hmmm. Or is he a lone scum and targeted you last Night? Still possible.

Where?


Let's go through the different persons:

RW - tied to the failed NK somehow. Can't be scum if there is only one scum left. Can be scum and, with agent most likely being Town, probably is scum if there are two scum left. Mechanically sensible choice. However, if he is scum, there also is another.

Joe - could be scum No.2 with RW. His deflection towards me would make sense then. He could also be lone scum. The way he protested repeatedly that he wouldn't have killed ZFR still makes me think that he did. Methinks the lady doth protest too much! ... BUT, if Joe is lone scum he would have no reason to deflect attention away from RW. Or to care whether agent or RW are lynched. Wouldn't scum-Joe have run with my 'either Agent or RW' suggestion? But then again he targeted me for some reason from the very beginning. So maybe he saw a chance to resume that. Or he just sows confusion for fun.

blotunga - mostly absent. Lynchable if no other candidate could be agreed upon just by the lynch lurkers tenet. He might be lurking his way to win.

Pooka - had his scummy moments but also quite some towny moments. Don't lynch today.

dedo - solid Town. If he is scum, he deserves to win. Also, most likely he isn't.

agent - repeatedly scummy behaviour, but his claim is most likely true. So I rate him as Town in spite of my misgivings about his narrow focus on RW.


...So, basically I have argued myself into another binary decision: RW? Or Joe?
I think I acted too rashly yesterday and since already 4 votes suffice for a lynch (with possibly 2 scum votes), I should be more careful:

unvote RW

But for the record, I am willing to lynch him or Joe, depending on what else they write. From my current mind-set, I will most likely put my vote back on RW, but I want to take more time. Yesterday I was in a hurry due to too much RL stuff around. Sorry for that.

Established that a single scum is a mechanical impossibility? Also, didn't dedo attempt to block RFG on Night 1, thus possibly allowing RW to use his claimed role?

I haven't had any use thus far. A bodyguard is kind of a doctor that only wants to protect roles. It's not much good swapping one vanilla Town for another.

If anyone had noticed the breadcrumbs, I couldn't very well claim something else, could I?

Angel (Bodyguard)

Not lurking necessarily by choice. Anyway question to pooka, dedo and agent:
Whom do you think most likely scum: RW (failed NK -likely not lone scum if scum), Lift or Joe? I feel that d1 dynamic with Lift/Joe reemerging.
Could we have a RW/Joe scumteam? Would RW claim rolecop-ing joe because it's a safe bet since he knows his scumbuddy will play along (maybe they even agreed upon such claim).

No, we established that if there is a single scum it can't be RW. RW can only be scum if there are at least 2 scum (or some major mod shenanigans). RW was blocked on N2 by me so whatever he did, he did it on N1. We know that there was a Kitsune kill on N1 and we know RW did investigate Joe to find out he is powerless. These two things are exclusive to each other which means RW cannot be scum if there is just one scum. He can only be scum with another person in which case RW investigated Joe on N1 while his buddy killed RFG, and on N2 RW was the one doing the killing but got blocked while his buddy did something else or just stood by. There is a notable sub-variant of the 2 scum scenario in which RW and Joe are scum together and they corroborated each other and both their claims may be partial or complete lies.

I did but it didn't work, we already went over that. RFG had his own built-in protection that negated my action. But that doesn't matter, I already explain why above.

OK but why would that make you think there is something fishy with the setup instead of assume we have a number of roles that could use protecting?

Yeah, like that ever happens but OK.

Cool.


So, I'm unsure what to think, so some general comments/thoughts/observations:

1. I don't like the role name "Angel (Bodyguard)". Why not just one or the other? A quick search (so maybe not good enough but still) on mafiascum shows that Angel has played as either a Cop or a Doctor so maybe it makes sense that it's the equivalent of another role in here. It makes some sense to be Bodyguard, too (i.e. guardian angel and what not) but still a bit weird that the role was presented with both names and not just one. I'm not putting too much weight on this as it might have been done for the sake of flavor consistency. Also, if we have other magical characters maybe it makes sense to them since they might have similar role descriptions.

2. Even though I appreciate the alleged protection I'm not sure if I, personally, would have switched targets if I was ready to give my life for the sake of another person because I thought they had a PR. Why not keep protecting the same PR? Again, nothing too important here, just something that I thought about. As we saw with our SK discussion Agent and I have different playstyles and would resort to different strategies.

3. The role does make sense to me in what we think our setup is. I talked about this earlier - I was expecting us to have a whole bunch of roles to balance the multiple threats and was starting to get concerned that's not the case. This role back my original theory as it's a protector but then it's a one-off thing and it has a high price, so yet another semi-useful, somewhat gimped role. Not too much to make us unbeatable but still capable of making a difference under the right circumstances.

4. I don't understand why the role would suggest weird setup instead of role heavy one.

5. I do understand why the mass claim might make the role more useful.

6. Agent continues to neglect things that can't or at least shouldn't be neglected - the latest example was the statement that even if there is just one scum RW is still a decent option. It's either selective blindness or he's just not paying enough attention and misses things (which isn't necessarily damning, it happens but ideally it shouldn't).

I have to think about it some more as I'm not sure.


But it's a possibility??

It's possible, yes, although I don't remember what sort of interactions they had, it would be useful to go back and check.

You are scummy yourself. I understand you have IRL stuff to deal with but I don't like your sporadic appearances and short posts. So let me try to help you a bit with that and get you back on track. Who do YOU think is the most likely scum (feel free to limit yourself within the options you provided or add others to them). Thanks!

I am not one who writes walls of text. Not even under normal circumstances. Sorry about that...

As stated above I can only imagine RW being scum in a Joe/Rw duo.
The Lift/Joe interaction also felt like some sort of distancing at times, so I wouldn't exclude that they are scumbuddies either with joe being regular goon, no idea about lift.
With pooka I'm undecided, not his strongest game but nothing definitely scummy either.
If I think about it the easiest test for my theory would be lynching Joe. If we have 2 scum it would likely hit half (sorry joe).

Carr's roleclim is difficult to disbelieve. Someone mentioned that there are evil angels onthe show, but even if there are we're supposed to be looking for kitsune so unless there's a fourth party in this 10-player game I think an angel's got to be on the good side. It's been mentioned that we'd expect to find an angel on our side so unless Carr gets counter-claimed his claim is fairly tight.

Why did I vote Lift, not RW?
-RW had been going heavily for me yesterday and I thought there might be some OMJBUS influencing my read.
-Lift's narrowing down the scumpool to RW and Carr suggests RW lift might not be a team.
-I feel more strongly toward lift.

RW's voting with me which is unexpected, as he spent the end of Day 1 with me as him prime suspect and most of Day 2 almost getting me lynched. I was expecting a lot of attention from him Day 3 as RedFire's flip shouldn't have changed his read on me, which has factored into my general scum-read of him for most of toDay.

Lift's decided he's got to vote for one of the two people voting for him...
He's also hung-up on my 'scum-evidently-ain't-as-smart-as-me' comment, which, I admit, I did make to provoke. Does it mean anything that he took the bait?
He's also narrowed down the pool of possible scum to RW, blotunga and Joe. Which agrees neatly with my possible scumteam of RW, blotunga, Lift or Pooka. Is the scums Lift and Pooka? It doesn't really make sense with day 1, does it?

Lift and RW, RW and blotunga, or Lift and blotunga. Do any of these make sense? Or make no sense?

Pooka and RW?

Pooka and blotunga? (it's laughable, I refuse to accept it)

I think there's a good chance it's Lift.


ahuh. Why are you sorry, blo?

I'm following now. I was assuming that scum RW could be lying. But he did correctly identify Joe's role, so he must know somehow.

Because there are at most six Town (more likely five) left and two of those are vanilla / one-shot. Seems improbable that all of the players that I can't protect are the ones that have been revealed.

I wasn't so sure Lift was Town, so didn't wish to protect him.

RW (surprise surprise).

I'll take a page from dedo's book and say:

I'm here and will be catching up on what happened so far.

The weekend is almost over vote count

Being Voted ------------------------------------------------Voted by
RWarehall---------------------------------------------------Agent (Post 519)
Lift------------------------------------------------------------Joe (Post 575), RWarehall (Post 587)

Closest to lynch is Lift at L-2

The Day will end sometime Monday or Tuesday evening my time in the US

Okay, so.

RE: Agent's claim

The only thing I don't like about it is that his role is called Angel. The flips so far tell us that Trent is using regular Mafia role names (Town Cop, Serial Killer, Vanilla Town), and the claims hint to the same (Jailer, Role Cop), but Agent is an Angel instead of the Bodyguard. This inconsistency feels weird, but knowing the setting, maybe it's because Agent is an Angel while the rest of the roles we know about are humans. On reading, his full claim is "Angel (Bodyguard)". Which marks the consistency checkbox for me in a roundabout way.

That said, his leaving breadcrumbs from Day 1, before any roles whatsoever were even hinted at, let alone before any night actions were done, that's not something I see scum doing. They usually are hesitant about what they want to claim as so they don't get counterclaimed, so for him to leave hints at being an angel from the beginning of the game seems less like scum play and more like Town play.

Despite this, there's no way to confirm anyone were indeed visited by Agent. Take this post.

Whereas with dedo's blocking of RW, the latter acknowledged he was blocked and even the flavor reason for the block, not to forget that dedo himself got a success result as jailer (though come to think of it, if you're a bodyguard, getting a success result is basically being killed).

RW - I'd say 50/50 chance he's scum, but like dedo is saying, only if he is part of a scumteam. That scumteam could be made of him (obviously) and
Joe - If he's scum, it makes sense why he would play along with RW as you yourself put it.
Lift - I have to reread the Day and see how Joe/Lift went, but I don't like how quickly he voted RW right after the Agent claim.

I say most likely scum is Joe, with my argument for lynching him being that he's basically linked with RW (through the claim) and Lift (with his conflict). If Joe flips Mafia, we would feel more confident with hunting RW and leaving Lift, even better if Joe also flips a mafia PR. If he is Town, that doesn't clear RW's position since his role cop ability can only tell roles not alignments, but at this point Lift should be put under the magnifying glass.


Where'd you read that? I don't think I've seen it myself, could have missed it.

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Pooka and blotunga both think that the best way to resolve the "Joe has voted for Lifthrasil and tried to get him lynched twice on two different days so they must me a mafia team, meanwhile RW and Joe are now both voting for the same person so THEY must be a mafia team" conflict is to lynch Joe without Joe actually acquiring any votes at all.
Gentlemen, your challenge is to respond to this mocking accusation without simply voting for Joe - that would be too predictable.

Or, Pooka, do you mean here "I say most likely scum OUT OF THE THREE is Joe"?

I read it as I'm your top scum pick out of everybody, but maybe you're taking blotunga's question at face value. Is that it?

Pooka's the fourth person now to consider that Joe and RW are a mafia team. Were you all asleep Day Two??