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Just wanted to share a new character build I came up with:

* Race: Human
* Gender: Female (required)
* Class: Bishop
* Level 1 Stats: Put 7 in STR (to 52), 1 in INT (to 56), 7 in VIT (to 52), 5 in SPD (to 50)
* Level ups: Stat increases: INT/VIT for one level, than STR/INT
* Skills: Wizardry (needs to reach 15 before level 3, and you may want to get more increases when you're level 3)
* Spell picks: At level 1, Energy Blast and Frost; at level 3, Shrill Sound and Magic Missiles
* At level 4, class change to Valkyrie

What this gets you:
* Power Cast at level 14, earlier than typical for a Valkyrie
* Power Strike at level 18
* Some attack spells to use before level 12, when Whirlwind can be learned. Magic Missiles allows the Valkyrie's strongest realm to be used offensively. Shrill Sound is also good earlier, though eventually Whirlwind obsoletes it (and can boost Divinity, unlike Shrill Sound). These extra early attack spells can be helpful in an MDP.

Variations:
* By distributing stats differently, you could get Power Cast as soon as level 12, but then other stats may take longer to get good, and you lose the level 2 class change option (even though this build changes at level 4).
* The spell pick choices assume an MDP. For a more typical party that has no Mage/Samurai, you might want Enchanted Blade and Missile Shield instead if your party is otherwise lacking them. (Note that X-Ray would take 5 more Bishop levels, but it's not needed if the party has a Gadgeteer.)
* Change back to Bishop late game when you have (near) max Polearm skill, then equip that Mindblast Rod. (Bishops don't get Polearms skill, but you don't lose the skill you already have.)
* Lord instead of Valkyrie. Note the higher strength requirement for Lord, but this gives better continuity of weapon selection.
* 8 levels of Bishop for X-Ray (and Element Shield, if you're going this far).
* Lizardman instead of Human. You won't be able to change to Valkyrie/Lord until level 8/9, and won't get expert skills anytime soon (so don't bother with INT), but it looks like you can do the class changes as soon as you're not an apprentice. This build has high VIT, but remains an apprentice for a while and has reduced SP regen. May not be optimal, but if you want to try to use what's probably the worst apprentice build, this is one thing you could try.
The race, Human, I wholeheartedly agree with. As a veteran player, they get 45 to every attribute to start, the highest stat sum of any race, and nothing is lagging behind.

What are you going for in the long run? A Valkyrie is great without Powercast (I'm doing one in my party).

Mindblast Rod is inferior to the Staff of Doom. Even if you have to spend a (wasted) night or two grinding for it, it's well worth it in the long run.

This sounds like hot garbage. The game rewards specialization, so stick with one class, and max two attributes as soon as possible.
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RChu1982: The race, Human, I wholeheartedly agree with. As a veteran player, they get 45 to every attribute to start, the highest stat sum of any race, and nothing is lagging behind.

What are you going for in the long run? A Valkyrie is great without Powercast (I'm doing one in my party).

Mindblast Rod is inferior to the Staff of Doom. Even if you have to spend a (wasted) night or two grinding for it, it's well worth it in the long run.

This sounds like hot garbage. The game rewards specialization, so stick with one class, and max two attributes as soon as possible.
A few things:
* Humans aren't ideal for every build, due to their lack of specialization and lack of racial bonuses, but it turns out that they're particularly well suited to builds that need lots of stats. And this particular build does need lots of stats, as every stat needs to be at least 50, the majority 55, in order to meet the requirements for both classes.
* The build is meant for fun, and perhaps to fit with the theme of an MDP (the previous party was an "everyone gets Powercast party", so I decided to work out if I could get Powercast early on a Valkyire via class change).
* Staff of Doom goes to somebody else, someone who isn't good with other types of weapons. Mindblast Rod, for this rather unusual build, has the advantage that it allows this character to use the points she gained in Polearm throughout the game after changing back to Bishop; otherwise changing to Bishop after spending most of the game as a Valkyire doesn't make much sense.
* You don't need to be as specialized as you might think to be effective, particularly given the way skill growth has diminishing returns.
* If you want a party where *everyone* is strong in melee, or even just a party with no full casters, and you don't want to use a Samurai, or if you otherwise don't have room to fit a Mage, Samurai, or full Bishop in, this build could be a way to get access to the Missile Shield and Enchanted Blade spells. (With that said, starting out as a Valkyrie or Lord and then changing to Bishop for those levels might make more sense; more HP at level 1, but can't start with good INT.)
* The long-term penalties for having those 3 levels of Bishop at the start are 10 HP (before VIT, so maybe slightly more) and 1.5 levels of fighting ability. This isn't that much, since fighting ability is heavily influenced by skills (which have diminishing returns), and unless your HP is uncomfortably low (not a problem for most builds, and certainly not here after the class change), HP isn't that important.
* I'm thinking of using the level 12 Powercast variant in place of a Priest in a party with 2 full Bishops and the other 3 specialist casters.

In any case, these builds are just for fun (especially the Lizardman variant; it's interesting that the stat requirements work out such that you can change class as soon as you're no longer an apprentice), and the point of the game is to have fun, right?
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RChu1982: What are you going for in the long run? A Valkyrie is great without Powercast (I'm doing one in my party).
I know, but sometimes I might something other than the typical Valkyrie who focuses on STR/DEX and pursues maximum fighting effectiveness.
Post edited January 19, 2024 by dtgreene
I'm more of a "purist". Create a character, then grind them to the max level you want them at, and then win the game.
Somehow, class-changing violates that rule, because I feel like you are manipulating the system (similar to how people stand in the Arnika fire to heal, or repeatedly inspect chests, or repeatedly Charm NPCs, etc.
I take pride in strong characters, able to fight in melee/ranged/magic without cheese.
I guess I'm a dying breed.
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RChu1982: I'm more of a "purist". Create a character, then grind them to the max level you want them at, and then win the game.
Somehow, class-changing violates that rule, because I feel like you are manipulating the system (similar to how people stand in the Arnika fire to heal, or repeatedly inspect chests, or repeatedly Charm NPCs, etc.
I take pride in strong characters, able to fight in melee/ranged/magic without cheese.
I guess I'm a dying breed.
Thing is, class changing is generally underpowered in Wizardry 8 that it doesn't feel like cheating, at all. (Exceptions may apply in cases where the strategy involves practicing a skill until it increases to ridiculous levels before class changing, like the old strategy of starting as a Stealth class, getting Stealth up to 100, and then changing class away.)

To put it another way, this sort of thing doesn't feel anymore like manipulating the system as, say, something like the following:
* Create a Lizardman Fighter
* At character creation, max out Str, Dex, and put the remaining points into Spd
* At level up, put all points into Str and Dex, until those stats max out
* Enjoy your strong Fighter with Power Strike and (later) Reflection

The thing is, this Fighter build is something I'd consider rather elementary; it's something that an inexperienced player might reasonable use.

I really just like to think of interesting builds that are, perhaps, outside the norm. Like, for example, this Bishop -> Valkyrie class change, to get an expert skill sooner on a class that one usually doesn't give that skill to. Or, the dwarveb battle Bishop, who is designed to fight semi-decently while having access to a variety of spells, and as a bonus, this is an apprentice build. Apprentice builds are an interesting option, and they're something players tend not to use.

So, the idea is that I look for underutilized options that the game provides that look fun.
Some thoughts on Priest builds:

* Slow Power Cast Priest: The best you can do without a class change is a Gnome with INT/[stat] (stat something other than SPD or SEN, of course); this gets you Power Cast at level 12. You can actually get this skill sooner if you start as a Elf Bishop, but the problem is that you then need to "waste" points on PIE and (especially) VIT if you specifically want a Priest.

* Fast Priest: Doesn't seem to be a reasonable option, as there's no race with good PIE, VIT, and SPD. You might as well go with a Bishop instead, and maybe try to reach Priest requirements after getting Snake Speed if you specifically want that class.

* Battle Priests feels like a somewhat common setup. Here you actually do get decent racial choices, like Dwarf (Power Strike at level 11 IIRC) or Dracon (more DEX, plus breath attack). (There's also the Dwarf Fighter 1 -> Priest, which ends up with even better fighting stats at the cost of a caster level.)

* For comparison, a Human Priest can start with 60 in any stat that isn't PIE or VIT; that means 0.0.7/raster/the expert skill of your choice can be obtained at level 15. (*One* point away from getting it at level 14.) Power Cast can be obtained at level 13, which is only one level worse than the Gnome.

* Of course, there's also survivor Priest setups, where the goal is for the Priest to not die or get disabled. The Priest stats are nicely set up for this purpose, though long-term I'd prefer Valkyrie for this build because of more HP and Cheat Death. One unique (from my standpoint) aspect of this build is that it maxes PIE in order to get Iron Will and the resistances that go with it. (Maybe VIT as well?) Just remember to focus on picking spells that cure disabling status ailments (like Cure Paralysis, Sane Mind, Resurrection (especially nice when you're faced with too many Death Clouds), and Restoration), though of course other spells that you really don't want to miss casts of (like Purify Air and healing spells) are also good choices.

* I struggle to find a good use for the Rawulf race for any build. (Felpurr does have some uses, like a Bishop who gets Snake Speed at level 13 and doesn't have the Fairy drawbacks, but Rawulf doesn't seem to have any good builds that couldn't be done better with some other race.)
I did my last MDP with my Human Priest maxing Intelligence, Piety, Speed, and Senses, having unlocked and maxed PowerCast, Iron Will, SnakeSpeed, and Eagle Eye. He was decent at keeping everybody alive, though the Vampire Chain I made for him wasn't doing much in melee (doesn't get the full Strength damage bonus, no status ailments to enemies).

At the point I reached Ascension Peak (level 37 and 36), the Priest's melee wasn't a factor, and it became a ranged combat slug-fest with monsters, spawning constantly, so bad that, while I normally "fill out" the map, I made a bee-line from the final Rapax battle to the portal to the Cosmic Circle.

Basically, when it comes to AP, the Priest's focus should be on Ranged Combat (should have Senses maxed, and unlocked and worked on Eagle Eye expert skill).
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RChu1982: I did my last MDP with my Human Priest maxing Intelligence, Piety, Speed, and Senses, having unlocked and maxed PowerCast, Iron Will, SnakeSpeed, and Eagle Eye.
Which ones did you do *first*?
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RChu1982: Basically, when it comes to AP, the Priest's focus should be on Ranged Combat (should have Senses maxed, and unlocked and worked on Eagle Eye expert skill).
But then you won't have the Strength you need to carry all that ammo without encumbrance penalties, not to mention that Strength actually *does* affect the damage you do with most ranged weapons.

There's more than one possible way to build a Priest.
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RChu1982: He was decent at keeping everybody alive, though the Vampire Chain I made for him wasn't doing much in melee (doesn't get the full Strength damage bonus, no status ailments to enemies).
That's why I'd give the Priest a The Mauler, the Diamond Eyes (if there isn't someone who wants to dual-wield it), or the Staff of Doom (if nobody else wants it). You get the full Strength damage bonus, status ailment(s) on hit, and depending on the choice of weapon, maybe even Crush (handy for long range combat, particularly before you get Falling Stars) or Death Cloud.

I tend to prefer whips for more caster-oriented builds, where I don't care as much about melee damage (and where Strength isn't a priority), since it can be used with a shield.
Post edited January 21, 2024 by dtgreene
Going with the Power Cast Bishop->Valkyrie, let's take things to the extreme: We want Power Cast at level 11, no matter the cost!

So, we make the character an Elf Bishop, with maxed INT. The situation looks like the following:
* 30 bonus points at character creation.
* INT starts at 55 (Bishop requirement). To get Power Cast at level 11, 10 points need to be spent here, plus getting the Trynton fountain boost. Then, 3 points are spent per level, leaving 3 more to meet Valkyrie requirements.
* So, 20 bonus points to spend at level 1.
* STR: Is 35, need 50 for Valkyrie. So, 15 points are eventually needed here.
* VIT: Is 35, need 55. 20 points are needed here. (So, total is up to 35.)
* SPD: Have 45, need 50. (Total needed is 40.)
* Fortunately, Bishop requirements satisfy PIE and DEX needs.

So, of these 40 points required:
* 20 are spent at character creation.
* 7 levels to get 21 points needed for the other requirements. So, level 8 with minimum stats or the combination and 1 spare point.
* To get STR up from 50/51 will take 17 levels, so Power Strike won't come until level 25. (Reflextion is a bit more realistic to obtain, but that's still level 23.)
* Conclusion: You *can* do this, but is it really worth the trouble?

So, if that's too much for Valkyrie (and even worse for Lord, who can't change until level 10), let's try going to Priest instead:
* INT again takes 10 points, leaving 20 points.
* 5 need to go to PIE to reach 60.
* 20 go to VIT to reach 55. This would work out perfectly, except that you can't put more than 1/3 of your spare bonus points into a single stat! This means you can't change to Priest until level 5. (45 VIT at level 1, so 54 at level 4, and the change can happen at level 5.)
* At kevet 5, STR is 42. (5 points at character creation, then 2 at level 5.) Need 58 more to max it out, which means you can't get Power Strike until level 25!
* So, is it worth it? Not if you want Power Strike, but might be interesting if you'd rather focus on magic (especially if your party is missing some spells).
* And one ugly bit: At the level up when you change classes, the skill changes are not applied until *after* you take your spell picks. Therefore, you don't get the benefit of the Divinity boost if your goal is to get Armorplate or Magic Screen at level 5.

(Have I made any math mistakes here?)

(Side note: A Dwarf Bishop should be able to change to Priest at level 4.)
I did Speed first, to unlock and maximize SnakeSpeed (note that maximizing this skill requires cheese, as doing the game "honorably" will never max this expert skill). You have to stand there for thousands of rounds, until the RNG determines that "Snakespeed skill has increased to 100".
Intelligence was raised to 95, so as not to waste points before the Trynton Well +5 free points. As soon as Powercast was unlocked, I portaled back to Arnika, where PC training was in order.
Because I had such a fast-levelling party, I got the Bard, Gadgeteer, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage to level 31 in Arnika (facing no magic-using enemies, and getting all possible treasures in any chest). The Priest's order was: Speed, Intelligence, Senses, and Piety, by level 30 or so, unlocking Powercast, Iron Will, Snakespeed, and Eagle Eye.

I can revise my last party, and say that maybe the Priest should have focused on Strength, instead of Piety, since resistances can be easily boosted with Element and Soul Shields. I had an Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage, all with Staves of Doom, so the Priest's melee contribution wouldn't have been important.

To answer your question simply, a Battle-Priest could get by simply with the standard non-caster route (Strength and Dexterity, then Speed and Senses route). This would grant them PowerStrike, Reflextion, SnakeSpeed, and Eagle Eye expert skills, at a reasonable level (around level 30ish).
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RChu1982: Intelligence was raised to 95, so as not to waste points before the Trynton Well +5 free points.
For me, it would be rather unusual to have a character with 95 Intelligence and the opportunity to raise it further before I reach Trynton.

I *have* reached Trynton with 95 Intelligence, and getting that bonus does result in the message about unlocking the expert skill appearing on the main screen (as opposed to the level up screen).

Related: Why isn't there such a message for Eagle Eye?
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RChu1982: To answer your question simply, a Battle-Priest could get by simply with the standard non-caster route (Strength and Dexterity, then Speed and Senses route). This would grant them PowerStrike, Reflextion, SnakeSpeed, and Eagle Eye expert skills, at a reasonable level (around level 30ish).
At what level does that Priest typically get a second attack? In my experience, a STR/INT Priest doesn't get the extra attack until the late teens.
You should *never* have unlocked Powercast before reaching the Trynton Well, because that means that you wasted 5 attribute points (almost a whole level up). You should either: Unlock PC at the Trynton well (getting a message that said skill was unlocked), or get the +5 to Intelligence, and max it later, at character level up.
I don't know why maxing Senses doesn't give a prompt that Eagle Eye has been unlocked, unlike all the other expert skills. It's obviously a bug, but doesn't matter in the long run, as you still unlock EA, otherwise it would have been fixed.
That's the problem: You're building a Strength/Intelligence Priest. As far as I know, the formula for unlocking extra swings and attacks is the following: Encumbrance, level, skill in Close or Ranged Combat, weapon skill (counts twice as much as the former), Dexterity, and Speed. If you're ignoring Dexterity and Speed, the number of swings and attacks will suffer.
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RChu1982: You should *never* have unlocked Powercast before reaching the Trynton Well, because that means that you wasted 5 attribute points (almost a whole level up).
I wouldn't necessarily say *never*. If your route doesn't find visiting Trynton to be convenient until very late, and you're more concerned about beating the game than having a powerful party, it might not make sense to go out of your way to get the bonus, but you still might want Power Cast before then.

Then again, this involves a style of gameplay that neither of us use.

(In particular, I try to make sure the early game goes smoothly, but once I'm at the point where I could raise INT above 95, I'm ready to go to the swamp areas, and at that point stopping in Trynton is reasonable.

Then again, a speedrun might very well skip the Trynton fountain entirely. The time cost of using the fountain is small if you're already on your way to get the Astral Dominae, but the reward isn't that great from a speedrun standpoint. (Your Power Cast isn't going to get high enough to make a significant difference, or at least I don't think it will get high enough.)

(Also, I'm pretty sure it's a fountain, not a well.)
Alternatively, start as mage. More unusual build: alchemist to mage to valk. Build up all realms and get some early spells to pump up the divinity multi-damage realms. Even more unusual, change to psi late-game and use mindblast. Since stunrod and infinity helm is generally better. On Rawulf: divine bowman. Gets eagle eye faster than a human. There's a very old class change strategy: everyone is a fighter on peak. Simple, stupid, fairly effective. Staff of doom is the best weapon in the game, after all. Zatoichi is probably best non-cursed weapon.

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RChu1982: If you're ignoring Dexterity and Speed, the number of swings and attacks will suffer.
It really does make it take longer. That's why ankhs and shields help. And later those sweet boots fae can't use. This is why I like the str/dex then spd approach. But, yeah, haste is an option. The opportunity costs of str/int or str/sens are worth it, however. Even things like int/sens and vit/pie can make sense given the right strategy. I do like the idea of the vit/pie dwarven valk or lord. But that's a build to build a party around. (The obvious being that vit/str or dex is often the better choice.)

The thing about encumbrance is that it's not important, if you adjust appropriately. Ammo management is even more of a chore when not pumping strength, but, option, ignore ranged weapons. So something like a dex/int ninja can work. But that damage increase is very very nice. So it's all a matter of order, and, of course, if going for expert skills or not. Seeing as int and sen give game-staying abilities. Just a thought. I've been messing around with such things. But I think, if I can stomach the game, I'd go for a ridiculous dracon dex/str, spd/vit party. All hybrids and elites. Heh—party goes foosh! Might make end-game meh, but, well, them's the breaks. I like unbalanced things; they spark joy. The bishop is there for the long-term buffs before the warriors can get them. Still quicker even with the low starting skill points.

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dtgreene: (Also, I'm pretty sure it's a fountain, not a well.)
Indeed.