As far as the timeline goes The time between Blood Omen and Soul Reaver was decided before Blood Omen 2 released. You can see it if you look in the Soul Reaver 2 extras there is a timeline chart that lays everything out from Blood Omen, Soul Reaver, Soul Reaver 2. So you can see there a gap there created by the original team.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/sr2/timelinebig.php

See there was like 1500 years between them. I mean Kain is one entity it's going to take some time to suddenly be the leader of the entirety of nosgoth.

But in the changed events The Hylden Lord takes Janos body and uses it to power The Device and open the portal. He also had to discovered find the Nexus stone. The only way he was going to be able get one over on Kain. This all takes time and its not unbelievable that 200 years for the armies of the Sarafan Lord and Kain to get built and meet. Then Kain is all but destroyed put into a dormant coma like state for another 200 years while the Sarafan Lord continues getting control of Nosgoth and then ruling it.

Sorry if I was unclear on the paradox free will stuff rereading that I made myself confused lol. What I was just trying to say there is that yes Raziel due to his unique nature he is a paradox unto himself being intertwined with his own soul. This makes him able to do his own thing, have free will. I'm also of the belief that he is immune to the changes that occur so in the new timeline if young Kain never ressurects him it wouldnt' effect present Raziel.. Things will change around him as time reshuffles.

This is further proven by the fact at the end of Soul Reaver 2, when Kain uses the paradoxal moment to change history and every other moment when history is changed. Kain gets new memories of the past. But Raziel doesn't he remembers things the original way. Why? Because he is outside of time in a sense. He isn't effected. There is not a chance in hell that things transpired exactly the same way after all those changes so Raziel would have got new memories as well if the parodox had influenced him. So it doesn't matter if Kain ever does sire his sons in the new timeline.

The reason Raz wouldn't get new memories is because his future (the part of it he already experienced in his "past" --i.e., Soul Reaver 1 + before) DIDN'T change.
earlier on, when Raz doesn't kill Kain in the chapel, kain explains that "history is re-shuffling. It finds its previous course blocked by your decisoin and it look for the path of least resistanc,e most similar to its previous course: (paraphrased). Thus, Kain's "past" did change--affected by the events that were to unfold in Defiance. but this didn't have any bearing on Raziel, since he wasn't technically "around" to experience the changes yet.

I am very well aware of that. But I'm calling BS on the sheer amount of changes not changing his memories at all. There was a lot of stuff that occurred in Soul Reaver AND Defiance.

Not to mention that the Soul Reaver at the end of Defiance and in Blood Omen 2 is actually the purified Soul Reaver. That alone changes things since the Soul Reaver that Kain shatters on Raziel and Raziel takes up is not purified.

Furthermore Elder God himself kinda exists inbetween time and remember things from all time eras that he is around. After everything that transpires in Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance it is almost a certainty that Elder God would not have proceeded the same way with the same plan he knows will fail.

Also the fact there is a whole society of Vampires again and Vorador. There would have to be another massive entire vampire purge to get rid of every one of them within the 500 years before Kain raises Raziel and his brethren. And the only reason the first vampire purge succeeded was because Moebius manipulated the time stream with Kain and the Soul Reaver. And Nosgoths human race is in very poor shape considering they were all being governed secretly by the Hylden. Their entire structure was most likely in turmoil after the events of Blood Omen 2.

The evidence just doesn't add up to say that Raziel was never effected by the changes..

It makes absolutely no sense that events would transpire exactly as they would have with no changes for Raziel.

Which either means Raziel doesn't realize he has new memories OR he isn't effected by them due to his unique nature.

Ok, first off, there's no evidence that EG exists outside the timestream. Though it seems likely, given his numerous descriptions as a "parasite" there is no concrete evidence of this.

secondly, Raziel cannot remember stuff from Defiance. his "lifespan", such as it is, starts with his resurrection by Kain, several centuries AFTER Defiance. keep in mind, KAIN cannot change history, except in very special circumstances (multiple reavers creating paradoxes, as in when he Killed William the Just)

to put it simply, Kain has made a full circle in his memories via time travel, while Raz only made half the circle. Kain from SR has continuous memories, from his human origin, for over a millennium up to SR1. everything that followed was new to him, so at the end of SR2, he didn't know HOW the things would happen to result in BO2, but he could only warn Raz not to raise Janos, since that was a major alteration of the timeline he could deduce.

Raziel's memories would change only if history went different FROM THE MOMENT KAIN RAiSED HIM, sometime after BO2. likewise, the elder KAin from SR1 is younger than the Elder Kain from Defiance--he would not YET possess the purified blade. The Kain in SR1 is, in fact, the older version of Kain from BO2, NOT the healed-up Kain from Defiance.

It's true, we don't know what all the consequences of BO2 were. However, at the end of BO2, we've had Kain, and I think something like 3 Cabal vampires that we knew of (Vorador, and two others, seen in cutscenes). The Vampire Army Vorador supposedly raised for Kain following BO1 was destroyed by the Neo-Sarafan, with a few vamps remaining. Not to mention that since Umah's death, Vorador and Kain probably weren't on great speaking terms.

As such, there's no reason to believe that Kain + Vorador's cabal would have a falling out, leaving Kain without an army. Which would force him to start "using his own soul" to raise new vampires, as per SR1's canon. and no reason why he wouldn't start with the tomb of the Sarafan heroes, including Raziel.

What you have to remember is that BO2 IS canon, and thus at the end of the Defiance we are left with 2 co-existing iterations of Kain--the Elder one we used to play in Defiance, who is healed and in possession of the Purified Reaver, and the Younger Kain--who just doomed the Pillars, killed the "unspoken" (who then immediately went on to posess Janos, and use him to open the Hylden Gate), and is, crucially, still insane from Nupraptor's corruption of the Guardians, and i possession on a non-purified Reaver. And it is the same un-purified reaver and insane Kain that goes on to play out BO2. And it's crucial to remember that without some major Reaver-induced paradoxes NEITHER Kain can change the timeline.

So, if we follow the "line of least resistance" logic, there's nothing unbelievable about the fact that Raziel's life from his resurrection to SR1 didn't really change in any significant way (esp considering that we have no idea what his life as a vampire was like in the first place)

You missed something vital. As you know there is only 1 Soul Reaver blade only one forged by Human Vorador for the Ancient Vampires in their war against the Hylden.. and of course till Raziel is absorbed its actually a Blood Reaver. Sometimes different ones from different times meet but there is still only one and therefore there has to be a Soul Reaver available for each person that has wielded it to get a hold of it. Now stay with me here, this is going to get all timeliney.. lol

The Soul Reaver that Kain (Defiance Kain) wields is the Soul Reaver Blade that he pulled from Raziel in Soul Reaver 2. That blade is the Soul Reaver blade from timeline era 500 years before Young Kain begins his quest in Blood Omen 1.. It was of the time when Vorador assaulted the Circle of Nine.

Therefore the blade is an earlier version of the blade and is the one that is purified in Defiance and Young Kain must possess it in the altered timeline. Because for anyone else to get the blade as history deems, at some point Defiance Kain has to take the blade back and place it back in it's appropriate timeline so that it can continue it's course of history and end up in William the Justs hands. So therefore this changes the complete history. The original blade had not been purified.

William will have a purified blade as will young Kain. Which means even if events played out the same to the point that Kain still shatters the blade over Raziel the wraith blade he gets will be the purified version from Defiance and he wouldn't need to have it absorb all the font elementals.. because it already has.

Do you see what i"m saying...

Therefore Kain (young) in the altered timeline discovers the Soul Reaver in it's purified form and carries it with him into the events of Blood Omen 2 and onward.

Which mean my point stands that events would have to play out somewhat differently even for Vampire/Wraith Raziel, The Soul Reaver, is no second duplicated blade for young Kain to find, so he must find the one that Defiance Kain possesses and the one Defiance Kain has is purified.


Blood Omen 2 is definitely Canon but its been pretty much accepted to be an altered timeline not the one that has always occured. Events are different. Janos, Vorador, Cabal. Purified Soul Reaver...

Obviously it's a different timeline because we saw it shift a number of times, we watched Kain get new memories as things played out different.

Yes Time will adjust it to be as close to the normal as can be, but they changed things multiple times and there is just no getting around some stuff. And a purified Soul Reaver is one of those things.

I agree with everything up to this.
There is no indication that the blade Younger Kain found in Avernus was the purified one. in any case, purified blade =/=purified Kain.
Don't forget, the blade William got was from Moebius. HE can't give a purified blade, because, he dies prior to purification (i'm not counting Moebius' "rebirth" in Defiance, since he couldn't see it in his future)

This is the screwy part, because the Reaver from BO1 was clearly described as still having the "ravenous spirit" and being mad.
At the end of SR2, Kain ended up with the Blood Reaver, 500 years prior to BO1. at the end of Defiance, the blade becomes purified, but this is AFTER the Pillars collapse. Thus, the weapon in BO1 can't the purified Reaver, since by the time Raz and Kain get to Avernus, Kain has already paid it a visit and killed Azimuth, picking up the Soul Reaver in the process.

I believe that Dark Prophecy was supposed to figure out the whole younger/elder Kain thing with the reavers, but we can't really be sure how that would play out. As of now, there are 2 Reavers with 2 Kains, and there will be paradoxes aplenty, but nothing can be said for sure.
I don't see anything that's been THAT time-altering, which is precisely the problem--that Kain can't change the timeline to get back to his actual destiny.

It's almost like you keep trying to fit the events/changes of Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance/BO2 into the original timeline as if it just repeats over and over. As if the changes always occurred but changes to the timeline can't always occur. This isn't the case. The whole point of Defiance and the ending was all about how Kain and Raziel rewrote the orchestrated fate that Elder God and Moebius concocted. The orchestrated events were that Raziel kills Kain in WIliams Tomb and then in his search for answers finds himself back in time to be absorbed into the blood reaver. This was the loop.. this is what occured who knows how many times. The changes that occured at the end of Soul Reaver 2 were huge. Kain's realization of the changes came across kain in horror. He suddenly saw Blood Omen 2 occur, when it hadn't before. That alone shows that it wasn't part of the original timeline.

That chain of events changed the moment Raziel defied fate.. that was a small change. History revolted. Then the moment at the end of Soul Reaver 2 really screwed things up. Then Defiance Raziel really discovers he truly has free will and is able to find his true destiny. he was indeed supposed to be the soul reaver but in a purfied state, not the corrupted mad state.




Yes in the original Blood Omen timeline the Soul Reaver contained a Ravenous Mad Spirit.

But the timeline was changed. We have not played the altered Blood Omen 1, we only played through the original Blood Omen 1. I don't think the altered Blood Omen 1 went much different in that the Hylden Lord was still trying to pull strings as was Moebius. I think the only big different is the Reaver itself.

Time won't allow for a paradox and it will do something to fix it. So having two reavers doesn't work Kain has to return the Reaver back at some point... He took the blade with him and therefore there was no blade there for anyone else, and if Kain takes the blade back to about the point in time where he took it from (500 years before BO1) and Moebius would still be alive to move it he isn't dead then and is already slotted to move the Reaver anyways. Kain could literally take it back to the stronghold again, there and place it back there just moments after Soul Reaver 2 Kain and Raziel leave.

Though we assume that altered Blood Omen 1 requires Moebius to move the reaver at all. Defiance Kain may very well be the one that places the purified Reaver in Avernus.

Sadly we'll probably never know the hows and whys but from what i see you can't get around the fact that old reaver is now purified and will need to be placed back there for everyone to get. Which means everyone that gets it will now get a purified reaver.

they aren't part of the original timeline. But they are the timeline we have now. Yes, it's changed, but as of the end of Defiance, we still have no way of seeing Kain make the time go right" to fulfill his Scion of Balance Destiny.

it's highly probable that Kain will indeed have to go back to Avernus and leave the blade there. However, this will involve him going back in time, thus increasing the chances of screwing things up even further. Which is the main reason I refuse to speak about it with any type of certainty.

I would add that Kain (future) knows what happens to his BO2 self after BO2 has ended. In theory this means that it's possible for younger Kain to have been the one to see the effects of Janos falling into the Hylden dimension. Maybe the Hylden's next transgression into the world. This could be what he is referring to.

What you seem to forget is that there was 2 Soul Reavers passing into the Blood Reaver. Raziel and the Soul Reaver bound to his arm. There is no way to predict how this will play out. But we can deduce that both Raziels can't stay in the one blade because it would create an impossible paradox. For every recircling of the events an extra Raziel would become trapped causing an infinite amount of Raziels in the Reaver. Therefore we can assume that there is only one Raziel in the Reaver. Therefore one of them must be released. Is this going to be the purified one? Maybe, but I doubt it, I would imagine that it would be the maddened one, ravenous from years of imprisonment. This would then allow a Reaver to exist that was corrupted. Though, I don't know how that would actually play out. It's all in the hands of the writers.

The corrupted one would have to be the last one. The one that was destroyed when Kain tries to kill Raziel with it. The first one we now know is the purified one. Everything in between is just pure speculation. Maybe it becomes corrupt over the years.

I see no evidence that it is a purified Soul Reaver. It would be the case if the Spirit Forge affected Raziel as well, but I'm sure that it only affected the Wraith Blade.
It has been confirmed that the purified blade is dispersed into Kain, while Raziel is absorbed into the blade.
Source

"8. How can the wraith blade be sucked into the blood Reaver with Raziel's soul, wouldn't that mean that there
are two souls in there?

The purified wraith blade that Raziel possesses is not drained into the Soul Reaver along with Raziel. In order for Kain to become purified by the wraith blade that contains the purity, the wraith blade must be dispersed or released from its imprisonment into Kain. Thus in that one single moment Raziel is simultaneously trapping himself within the Reaver but as well finally freeing himself from thousands of years of torment."

Perhaps. But I find it hard to believe that the purified blade would somehow not purify Raziel who is linked with it and yet purify Kain as soon as Raziel touches him. It was obviously channeling through him. Yet leaves Raziel unpurified himself? Raziel was made from Kain's essence when Kain was corrupted himself. That corruption was present and seen in all of Kain's offspring, his offsprings offspring and Kain himself. (and all the pillar guardians for that matter) if the purified blade purifies Kain.. how would it not purify his corrupted offspring (aka Raziel)? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Not saying your wrong. But from what I see it should have purified them both.

But I don't see how it matters since I don't see how events of Soul Reaver could end up the same in the future go around given the numerous timeline changes that occurred any ways.

SPOILERS
In the repeating timeline that Kain and Raziel loop through who knows how many go arounds, Raziel kills Kain in Williams tomb. That event shuffled the deck a bit when Raziels unique nature allowed him to make a new decision, the new decision being that Kain never dies at Raziels hand. Then the timeline is altered yet again, when Kain prevents Raziel from initially being absorbed. This change was even larger allowing for several things that never transpired to occur and creating the alternate timeline. With Raziel walking around free to make his own choices, he resurrects Janos which in turn gives a vessel for the Hylden Lord to take control of and use for his schemes to have his deranged and hate filled people to re-enter Nosgoth and destroy Humans and Vampires alike. This also allowed for Kain at some point to resurrect Vorador as well, creating a new Vampire race altering the fact that Kain was the sole surviving vampire in Nosgoth until he used his essence to raise his six vampiric sons. No instead Vorador is able to create natural vampires and give Kain an Army to combat the Sarafan/Hylden Lord.

To say that given all these changes. The Soul Reaver 1 events will occur the same way as we experienced them at this point with all those above changes is really far fetched.

Raziel is pure already, that's the point. He is the only one who can see the corruption. A peice of evidence towards this would be that Kain can see the Elder God as soon as he himself is purified. Raziel can always see him.

It's the Raziel that's trapped in Raziel's Soul Reaver that's corrupted. This version is purified when Raziel created the Spirit blade.

The reason the timeline doesn't change for SR1 is that history makes the smallest changes possible in the LoK universe when people change it. Nothing you have said cancels out that possibilities of SR1 happening exactly the way it did, we just don't know enough about the time in between BO1 (or BO2) and SR1.

It's been a while, but I remember Crystal Dynamics saying in an interview that even though some events change throughout the story, none of the time-changing events override any of the games. I remember this because people thought after SR2 that somehow BO1 was going to be completely different. But that's not the case.

It might seem like a bit much. but there's a huge gap between BO2 and SR1 for plenty to happen, so SR1 stays the same. There's also a huge gap between when Raziel is cast into the abyss and when he wakes up.

The problem is with them saying that is Soul Reaver 2 itself changes Soul Reaver 2 forever. There was actual time changing shifts that occur. I mean Raziel when we play is currently "fated" to kill Kain in Williams chapel... he changed fate right in front of us. So even if Soul Reaver 1 repeats itself exactly, once you get to Williams Chapel history will have changed, there will never again be the pull of fate to have Raziel kill Kain there, because now he doesn't.

It was also fated originally for Raziel to be absorbed into the Soul Reaver at the end of SR2, but that was forever and all eternity changed. From the moment we witnessed it and time/fate shifted to compensate, that scenario for any amount of loops will never happen again. Fate will never have Raziel be absorbed at that moment, so then history will never need to shift again.

Time/Fate doesn't shift and strain if it's already slated to be the way it is. So Soul Reaver 2 will never happen the way it did and if that's the case what's to say the rest some how will?

But I can concede that it's altogether possible that maybe Soul Reaver would play out nearly the same.. but Soul Reaver 2.. naw once you got there due to the actual shifts that occurred that altered things that occur in Soul Reaver 2, it's impossible for those to repeat again in a new loop.

what they said was that the events of SR1 remain the same (Raziel murders his brothers).
You can infer this from the games anyway, since he still has the abilities he gained from them in Defiance.

The early events of BO1 probably didn't change, but the last part with Moebius and Willendorf was obviously altered at least a little bit by the paradox Kain creates when he kills William. There is no Nemesis to fight, so that whole scenario becomes different.