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Looong Version

So, I'm going to ignore the tired bullshit of "You just enjoyed those games because you were younger then. Nostalgia = Your Opinion is Wrong. The End.", and look at things more practically.

Every generation of games has derivative knockoffs. That's been the case for as long as video games have existed. So, argument over? Knock off for lunch?
Nope.

The difference is that now it's the top-billed SUCCESSFUL games that are derivative rather than ONLY the cheaper knock-offs. The AAA market is FULL of redundant sequels, regurgitated gameplay and dumbed-down/streamlined/simplified (whichever you prefer) mechanics.

To understand why, you need to know the motivations of who is creating these games.
Currently, the two main forces are Developers and Publishers. Or Indie and AAA.

So rather than comparing Old to New, I'm going to compare New to New.

1) Indie Games Industry
It's booming now because of mechanical (and now visual) variety.
The market is finally large enough to sustain that variety at their level, and because of their indie-nature, they are actually compelled to innovate, rather than just compete at a "business as usual" level.

Mechanical interactions are greater in variety in a genre or sub-genre of gaming, and the player generally has more autonomy in how to use them.

And even the "derivatives" of the successful indie games tend to create overlap for design. (Terraria vs Minecraft.)

Otherwise, the market tends to reject direct/inferior copies more quickly. It's competition at work, or at least closer to a market that isn't choked out by monopolistic practices.

2) AAA Games Industry
Compared to the AAA scene where a small handful of HUGE publicly-traded companies control or flat-out own nearly ALL development.

The two best selling games of last year were both direct derivatives of their respective franchises (Skyrim, of TES, and CoD4.4 of CoD4.x.), keeping in mind that despite this, they outsold their competition by MIND BLOWING proportions.
The best selling game for the last 3 years was a derivative of other shooters.

So what gives? Is it solely the market's fault? In a way, yes. But more specifically, there are too few Publishers who control the market.

It's an oligopoly (near-monopoly).

Fewer suppliers dictating what goes on sale in a strong market = bad for the consumer's choices.

There are about 10 major gaming publishers involved in mainstream gaming, but half of them are the impotent fallen Japanese giants (No direct offense to Japan, but it's clear that apart from Nintendo, Japan doesn't have nearly the influence over gaming that it used to), and among the 5 biggest western publishers, three of them wield distinctly higher influence over the market than the others (EA, Ubisoft, and Activision-Blizzard).

Personal Example: Tribes

I waited for YEARS for another game like Tribes. This year, I finally got my wish.
Why didn't I even see such a game for 7 years? Because Activision refused to sell the rights for such a long time after absorbing Sierra, even though they clearly weren't doing anything with the IP.

And since no other publisher was going to make such a game (since it would work poorly on console controls), it wasn't going to get made period, because that would betray the oligopoly.

It wasn't that there was no market for it (as Tribes Ascend clearly disproves in hindsight), it was that said market was of no interest to the few publishers in the oligopoly.




Of course, barring necessity goods, you can only bend economic forces so far; not break them entirely. The consequences of an oligopoly is that when someone wins, they win BIG. When they lose, they lose just as big.

Stakes increase as the market demographic/overlap decreases; by broadening their games to have wider market appeal, they have ironically shrunk the acceptable design space, and have DECREASED the potency of their games appeal in the long run.

Some have called it "Genre Homogenization", but I prefer to call it "Genre Inbreeding", since the problem becomes more pronounced with each generation of sequels.

If the customer's only choices are Derivative Game A and Derivative Game B, whichever one wins is going to win by a HUGE margin (due to the nature of popularity).


Tangent on Multiplayer


Multiplayer is essential to games that aren't procedurally generated, and to developers who don't want to spend more time/money creating static content. This is how CoD4.x effectively took over Halo's role in the shooter market. Don't take my word for it, check out online usage numbers of Halo Reach before and after CoD4.3: Black Ops. The correlation could not be any more clear.)


This, in turn, means that even if the loser made profits, it lost out on economic profits, which basically means that whoever won gained more market share than whoever lost; often by taking market share away from the loser (assuming the market did not grow or shrink. Economics can get complicated :\)
(The MMO market is the prime example here, actually, but it goes beyond the scope of this topic)


Tangent on Skyrim an TES


(Though Skyrim, is a slightly different case. Despite being a prettier, dumbed down copy of Oblivion, it outsold everything because there aren't many games like it in the first place.

Honestly, I would like TES games a lot more if Bethesda would quit subtracting depth from them each iteration, and fix their monstrous glitches/bugs)


HE HEART OF THE MATTER: They compete to make their games accessible rather than unique or truly innovative because they are fighting over a smaller number of markets that they themselves, limited. And if "Increasing Accessibility", means eliminating depth, then so be it.

This has become especially true following the recession. Most of the gaming giants are falling in some manner or another, and the very greatest have fallen the furthest.

In a regressing market, their motivations have changed from to creating new markets, to sustaining their existing market. To eliminate competition directly rather than expanding their folios; primarily by outlasting the other guys.

In other words: "Don't change what works." became "Preserve what works, ignore everything else, and hope we outlast the other guys."

Incidentally, this is probably why companies like EA and Activision are stockpiling IPs they will never commit to or sell. Better to keep such properties away from possible competition than to let anyone else have it.

It's counter-intuitive, but that's what they're doing, because they fear innovation.
They fear losing that wide-market appeal, even as they flail helplessly.
They fear breaking their own oligopoly which they have profited greatly from for years, and no for-profit company would ever want to lose that.

And the longer they stick to this cycle, the worse it becomes, and the better those Retro Games look.

So it's NOT just Nostalgia Goggles; it's NOT just asshole hipsters whining (though they are out there, loudly whining to anyone who will listen). Many of these old gaming giants ARE stagnating if not dying.
Even Activision is merely treading water, rather than rising exponentially as one would expect.

And this explanation/wild tangent went on for entirely too long.
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keeveek: Dune II may be too clunky, but Dune 2000 still holds up bravely for me, and I play it from time to time.
What makes Dune II and Warcraft I completely unplayable for me is the lack of the right mouse button usage.

Some games have their very own charm. I still love the first RoA like you can only love when you are young. But I also know how horribly outdated many of the elements of this game are. But I also love some of the newer games because of their charm, knowing that they have some serious flaws.

Gaming is a lot about personal preference. You can rightly say, "I don't like this game" but saying "this game is shit" is often wrong, because even the shittiest game can have fans.

Except for "And Yet It Moves". That game is pretentious hipster bullshit and burn in hell.
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rampancy: Whether you accuse people of "Retro Gamer Elitism", or actually buy into that, it all comes from the same place where "Modern Gamer Elitism" comes from. There are modern-day games that are very good, and modern-day games that are very bad...just as how there are indie retro games that are very good, and indie retro games that are very bad.

People who don't see that almost seem like they're just blinded by their own fanboyism.
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SimonG: This.

There are some horrible games today

There were some horrible games ten years ago

There were some horrible games twenty years ago.


Actually, after playing for nearly twenty years now, I am fairly certain that less bad games are released today (indies aside) then ten or fifteen years ago.
Agreed, if I pull random, modern releases out of a hat today I'll end up with far more decent to really good games than I ever could have in the 80s or 90s. There were piles of shit games back then, even some of the good ones had made poor mechanical choices due to ignorance (not their fault, at the time no one specifically "knew better").

People like to complain a lot about derivative gameplay, but iteration with small changes is actually how you improve a product. This is specifically why Gears of War 3 legitimately could get a lower review scores than Gears of War despite actually being a better game than Gears of War. GoW3 was being judged on its merits today and not against games that came out years ago.

Essentially it boils down to this: Small and incremental improvements make a huge difference in the long run.

Some old games legitimately hold up to the test of time (few), some hold up due to nostalgia and preferences for nostalgic mechanics but only for those that have said nostalgia, and most legitimately don't actually carry water for today's games.
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Elmofongo: 1) Indie Games Industry
It's booming now because of mechanical (and now visual) variety.
Yes, because indie games are in no way to 95% always the same five game concepts with new graphics ...

The indie scene is no there where AA games where 15 years ago. In an unimaginative cycle of repeating the five successful ideas in hoping to cash out before the bubble bursts.

You have 1 good game for 99 shitty and forgettable games.
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SimonG: Except for "And Yet It Moves". That game is pretentious hipster bullshit and burn in hell.
I would like to also nominate Dear Esther for this awards category.
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SimonG: The indie scene is no there where AA games where 15 years ago. In an unimaginative cycle of repeating the five successful ideas in hoping to cash out before the bubble bursts.

You have 1 good game for 99 shitty and forgettable games.
You mean you don't like all these 10000 shoot'em up in space games? :D

I have a lot of respect for indie scene for reviving the point and click adventure genre ;)
Post edited September 03, 2012 by keeveek
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jefequeso: "First, I will preface this with one indisputable fact: MOST truly old games do NOT age well."

Stopped reading right there.
Despite your discomfort with the idea, this is true and you can read about the trouble gaming history professors are having due to this. They typically include games like Ultima III in their syllabus but those games are obtuse as fuck for gamers that didn't grow up with them. I understand you're younger and despite that have taking to liking these games, but that's rare and for understandable reasons. Some old games do hold up, but most are so fucking bad mechanically when held up to modern releases it's kind of sad.

As much as I like playing many of these games myself I very much recognize that some of the mechanics are pretty clunky or even difficult (and needlessly so, but only due to modern hindsight).
Post edited September 03, 2012 by orcishgamer
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keeveek: I have a lot of respect for indie scene for reviving the point and click adventure genre ;)
That they did. But in those games the story is usually king. It's not like they radically changed the concept of adventure games ;-). Good stories will always make games great.
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Elmofongo: I waited for YEARS for another game like Tribes. This year, I finally got my wish.
The dude's an idiot, Firefall is the game he was waiting for, Tribes Ascend, despite being good, is just a name.
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orcishgamer: They typically include games like Ultima III in their syllabus but those games are obtuse as fuck for gamers that didn't grow up with them.
I even have a more "How dare you!" example for you.

Wasteland. When Wasteland will finally be released on GOG people will scream and bitch about the "copy protection" which was basically a whole book.

But back in the day, it was impossible to store large amount of text ingame. They had to do the whole "read paragraph 7 now" thing. But this is in no way good game design by anytime standards. A simple Wasteland Redux which beef the resolution for the text and put it ingame would make Wasteland a better game.
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orcishgamer: They typically include games like Ultima III in their syllabus but those games are obtuse as fuck for gamers that didn't grow up with them.
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SimonG: I even have a more "How dare you!" example for you.

Wasteland. When Wasteland will finally be released on GOG people will scream and bitch about the "copy protection" which was basically a whole book.

But back in the day, it was impossible to store large amount of text ingame. They had to do the whole "read paragraph 7 now" thing. But this is in no way good game design by anytime standards. A simple Wasteland Redux which beef the resolution for the text and put it ingame would make Wasteland a better game.
As much as Wasteland is one of my favorite games of all time, it actually had a bunch of problems, due to their lack of good tools, mostly.
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orcishgamer: As much as Wasteland is one of my favorite games of all time, it actually had a bunch of problems, due to their lack of good tools, mostly.
While we're at it, why not go all in an kill God.

System Shock is also not so good by todays standards. Sure, it is a brilliant game, story, gameplay, atmosphere can still compete with todays games.

But the controls? NO mouse look, no proper hotkeys, and those atrocious cyberspace sections. All that can be resolved by todays technology and make a better game out of it.
Thankfully, we have mods and fan patches ;-)

btw. CD enhanced edition of system shock had higher resolutions and mouselook, etc ;-)
Post edited September 03, 2012 by keeveek
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jefequeso: "First, I will preface this with one indisputable fact: MOST truly old games do NOT age well."

Stopped reading right there.
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orcishgamer: Despite your discomfort with the idea, this is true and you can read about the trouble gaming history professors are having due to this. They typically include games like Ultima III in their syllabus but those games are obtuse as fuck for gamers that didn't grow up with them. I understand you're younger and despite that have taking to liking these games, but that's rare and for understandable reasons. Some old games do hold up, but most are so fucking bad mechanically when held up to modern releases it's kind of sad.

As much as I like playing many of these games myself I very much recognize that some of the mechanics are pretty clunky or even difficult (and needlessly so, but only due to modern hindsight).
In some cases, yes. The early Ultima games, some of the old text-based IF games, etc. But in many cases, the mechanics and design choices people label as "outdated" are simply "different." They aren't the same as they're used to in modern games, so they assume that they're worse. The lack of shiny new technology certainly doesn't help. The entire reason I enjoy old games as much as modern games is because a lot of them provide experiences that cannot be found in modern titles.

But fuck knows we don't see eye-to-eye on anything, so whatever.
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orcishgamer: As much as Wasteland is one of my favorite games of all time, it actually had a bunch of problems, due to their lack of good tools, mostly.
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SimonG: While we're at it, why not go all in an kill God.

System Shock is also not so good by todays standards. Sure, it is a brilliant game, story, gameplay, atmosphere can still compete with todays games.

But the controls? NO mouse look, no proper hotkeys, and those atrocious cyberspace sections. All that can be resolved by todays technology and make a better game out of it.
I do not envy you the response you'll get to this:)