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General discussion (archive)what games have you NOT bought because of DRM(333 posts)(333 posts)
(333 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 16, 2014
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HijacK: You're talking about a game that is more than a decade old. Get on with the times and research Blizzard's more recent games.
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ktchong: More than a decade ago, I used to buy every Blizzard game that came out: WarCraft 2, Diablo, Diablo 2, WarCraft 3. However, I have not bought a game from Blizzard since WarCraft III:

I do not play online, multiplayer or MMO. So World of WarCraft was never a consideration.

I did not like StarCraft. It was okay but became repetitive towards the end of the expansion, especially for me who have just played through WarCraft 2 and the expansion. but I was willing to give StarCraft 2 a try... until I saw StarCraft 2's horrible voice acting (of Raynor in particular) and the god-awful storytelling on YouTube. The cutscenes were so bad and corny that they made me cringe. So I have never played StarCraft 3.

Obviously I have never played Diablo 3 because of its always-online requirement. (I also checked out the story and cutscnes of Diablo 3 on YouTube... they were awful as well. Seriously Blizzard is the WORST in telling a story.) However, I'll get it if Blizzard ever decides to remove the always-online requirement for single-player, but I wouldn't count on it to ever happen.

Blizzard is kinda like BioWare to me: I used to buy all their games. However, I have ceased buying from them after they moved into new business directions. (Mass Effect on Xbox 360 was the last BioWare game I bought and played; I bought Mass Effect 2 but got rid of it on eBay after I found out about the DLCs.)

Which is fine... I've moved on to other developers and other games.
Never said play their games or asked why you don't buy them. Just implied that giving me an example of a game that's more than a decade old is an extremely weak example of Blizzard non-DRM stuff. And my point still stands. Most of the Blizzard consumer base is almost always online or online a good amount of the time. Many people who play WoW will naturally want to play other Blizzard games, so coming from an MMO medium, consumers are already used to the always online requirement. All Blizzard did was do their homework in this regard. Did it annoy many old time fans who dislike DRM? Sure, but I doubt they care based on their sales. Their games sell like crack.
Posted July 16, 2014
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HijacK: Securom is physical media DRM. It's the type of DRM that functions offline, at all times. The worst kind.
Hardly so, considering it is the kind of "DRM" where your ability to play your legit game does not depend on the existence or whims of the publisher.

That's why many also choose not to call it DRM at all (but only copy protection), because the publisher can't retroactively Manage the Digital Rights for the game you've bought from them. They cannot retroactively prevent you from playing the game at all, or force extra restrictions to the usage, etc.
Post edited July 16, 2014 by timppu
Posted July 16, 2014
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HijacK: Securom is physical media DRM. It's the type of DRM that functions offline, at all times. The worst kind.
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timppu: Hardly so, considering it is the kind of "DRM" where your ability to play your legit game does not depend on the existence or whims of the publisher.

That's why many also choose not to call it DRM at all (but only copy protection), because the publisher can't retroactively Manage the Digital Rights for the game you've bought from them. They cannot retroactively prevent you from playing the game at all, or force extra restrictions to the usage, etc.
Once all the activation have been used however, the disc becomes useless unless you contact that specific publisher to give you extra activations through an online service. Thus, the publisher has some degree of control over your physical copy. Not directly, but enough to classify it as DRM since it restricts you from using the copy an infinite amount of times in a legit way.
Posted July 16, 2014
I had a few bad experiences with DRM. For example Barman: Arkham City. I got a retail version of the game and I could not play it, because of all the DRM. So I returned the game, got my money back and bought it on Steam when they removed GFWL and SecuROM DRM. I really hate GFWL and if GTA V or any other game will have this DRM I will not buy it, I really don't care how great it is.
Since Ubisoft and EA are forcing you to install their own platform, Uplay and Origin, I have decided not to support them anymore(I think I haven't played a game from them since 2010). And let's not forget the "must be connected to the internet all the time" and the limited installations you get. I know it to well...
I got in 2008 Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3 Premium Edition and in 2013, after I installed the game, I get the message that I have installed it 5 times in the past, on five different devices...if want to play it again, I can buy it again. It seems that you can only install the game on 5 different devices, but that means that if I chance the software or a part of my computer it's considered another device. And in 5 year I did upgrade my PC and I did change the software! So I gave up on that and played Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2 instead.
So after these experiences I started supporting GOG and Desura a lot more. It is very rare that I buy a DRM game. I really can't remember the last one I bought.
Posted July 16, 2014
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HijacK: Once all the activation have been used however, the disc becomes useless unless you contact that specific publisher to give you extra activations through an online service. Thus, the publisher has some degree of control over your physical copy. Not directly, but enough to classify it as DRM since it restricts you from using the copy an infinite amount of times in a legit way.
You are talking about two to different versions of SecuROM; timppu is referring to the "classic" SecuROM protection that has been around quite a few years, before the massive switch to DD stores.
That was only a copy protection tied to the original disc, with no limited installations and no online connection whatsoever... just a check that the media was not a copy
Posted July 16, 2014
I remember downloading the demo of one Tomb Raider game and not being able to run the demo because of SecuRom. Can't remember if I intended to buy the game, but this certainly meant that I didn't.
Posted July 16, 2014
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HijacK: Securom is physical media DRM. It's the type of DRM that functions offline, at all times. The worst kind.
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timppu: Hardly so, considering it is the kind of "DRM" where your ability to play your legit game does not depend on the existence or whims of the publisher.

That's why many also choose not to call it DRM at all (but only copy protection), because the publisher can't retroactively Manage the Digital Rights for the game you've bought from them. They cannot retroactively prevent you from playing the game at all, or force extra restrictions to the usage, etc.
unless you scratch the disk of the game you legitimately bought and have installed on your computer, off course. It is retroactively managed in such a way that the games lifespan is limited to the CD's lifespan.

The usage is also forced in that you can only play the game on a computer where the disk is in the drive - so you may install it on more than one computer, but you can only play from one computer at a time (which is basically the same as what Steam's CEG does....) Which is why I consider these and other types copy-protection a form of DRM.
Posted July 16, 2014
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timppu: Hardly so, considering it is the kind of "DRM" where your ability to play your legit game does not depend on the existence or whims of the publisher.

That's why many also choose not to call it DRM at all (but only copy protection), because the publisher can't retroactively Manage the Digital Rights for the game you've bought from them. They cannot retroactively prevent you from playing the game at all, or force extra restrictions to the usage, etc.
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HijacK: Once all the activation have been used however, the disc becomes useless unless you contact that specific publisher to give you extra activations through an online service. Thus, the publisher has some degree of control over your physical copy. Not directly, but enough to classify it as DRM since it restricts you from using the copy an infinite amount of times in a legit way.
Wait a minute. Were you talking about a retail game which you have to activate online (e.g. limited activations)? Then I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about offline copy protection with no online activation required (even at the installation time).
Posted July 16, 2014
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timppu: Hardly so, considering it is the kind of "DRM" where your ability to play your legit game does not depend on the existence or whims of the publisher.

That's why many also choose not to call it DRM at all (but only copy protection), because the publisher can't retroactively Manage the Digital Rights for the game you've bought from them. They cannot retroactively prevent you from playing the game at all, or force extra restrictions to the usage, etc.
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amok: unless you scratch the disk of the game you legitimately bought and have installed on your computer, off course.
I bolded the important word in your sentence. It is you, not the publisher. The DRM example would be the publisher coming to your home to scratch your disk (deliberately or not) so that you can't use the game any more.

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amok: It is retroactively managed in such a way that the games lifespan is limited to the CD's lifespan.
Debatable, because the publisher can't retroactively change the lifespan, like coming to your home to scratch the disc if they feel you shouldn't be allowed to use (install and/or play) it anymore.

Also considering the rather long lifespan of CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs, I don't consider it plausible that the game publishers see that as the point to use copy protection (ie. that you can play the game only for a limited time). But in a broader sense, copy protection has same purpose as (online) DRM, ie. some level of control to the publisher over how people use their license. But with online DRM, the publisher can also change the restrictions afterwards.
Post edited July 16, 2014 by timppu
Posted July 16, 2014
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timppu: Also considering the rather long lifespan of CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs, I don't consider it plausible that the game publishers see that as the point to use copy protection (ie. that you can play the game only for a limited time). But in a broader sense, copy protection has same purpose as (online) DRM, ie. some level of control to the publisher over how people use their license. But with online DRM, the publisher can also change the restrictions afterwards.
My "Virtua Tennis" (1) CD has died without physical force already and one of my Diablo 2 CDs crumbled one day although it was very rarely used (because it was the video CD only used for installs).

No, natural lifespan of CDs/DVDs isn't enough for me, I want backups and would like to be able to play Virtua Tennis again.
Post edited July 16, 2014 by Klumpen0815
Posted July 16, 2014
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amok: unless you scratch the disk of the game you legitimately bought and have installed on your computer, off course. It is retroactively managed in such a way that the games lifespan is limited to the CD's lifespan.
I would quite happily place more trust in my €19 Ikea Kilby bookshelf, a CD and an Amaray box than I would a profit-driven server operator. This "physical media is obsolete because CDs get scratched/broken etc." argument is desparate - it's wearing thin and getting old.

CDs - at least properly pressed and properly cared-for ones - are expected to last between 30 and 100 years. Obviously, nobody can tell if they'll actually last 100 years, but there are music CDs from the mid-1980s still in circulation that still play perfectly.

The only people I ever see claiming that their CDs and DVDs have somehow rotted through no fault of their own are the people trying to drive home some ideological point about physical media being dead. And when I've seen such degradation, there has always been some underlying cause - games left out of their boxes in the sun, kids handling the games unchecked, a complete lack of discipline when handling the games with discs lying about on carpets, rugs, dirty tables and so on.

In fact, I actually used to think that magnetic media were the exception when it came to game media preservation, and that they degraded somewhat more quickly. Even there I've been proven wrong - I've just received a whole bunch of 1980s C64 games on 5.25" disc, and all of them bar one work perfectly.
Post edited July 16, 2014 by jamyskis
Posted July 16, 2014
I don't avoid all DRM, but I do make it a point to find out what a game has before buying.

Basically it started with StarForce for me, I won't buy anything with StarForce in any shape or form until (like previous X games) there is a patch to remove it. StarForce is a publishers way of saying they hate their customers. Although StarForce seems to have fallen from favor these days, not without good reason though since it was notorious for killing PCs. I won't buy anything that needs Steam or uses Steamworks, at least not in any way that directly supports Steam. If there's something I want that uses Steamworks there's usually a good chance it's also available for consoles, I'll either buy it for console or if it's ridiculously superior for PC I'll buy a console version (which is usually more expensive anyway) and download the PC version with Steam removed. Yeah, I know it's not technically a legal route but I support the developers so my conscience is clear.

Those are basically the big ones for me but I'm always looking out for things that are required to run that aren't actually needed by the game, that's a waste of resources and anything that wastes my resources I consider malware.
Posted July 16, 2014
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jamyskis: The only people I ever see claiming that their CDs and DVDs have somehow rotted through no fault of their own are the people trying to drive home some ideological point about physical media being dead. And when I've seen such degradation, there has always been some underlying cause - games left out of their boxes in the sun, kids handling the games unchecked, a complete lack of discipline when handling the games with discs lying about on carpets, rugs, dirty tables and so on.

In fact, I actually used to think that magnetic media were the exception when it came to game media preservation, and that they degraded somewhat more quickly. Even there I've been proven wrong - I've just received a whole bunch of 1980s C64 games on 5.25" disc, and all of them bar one work perfectly.
I thought the same way before original pressed CDs self destroyed in my collection.
Bad presses are happening all the time and in the end it's a matter of luck.
I do care so well for my stuff, that all my dozens of C64 floppys and all my SNES and GameBoy games have still been working fine until I sold them in the last two years (because my flat is really small).
Posted July 16, 2014
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Klumpen0815: No, natural lifespan of CDs/DVDs isn't enough for me, I want backups and would like to be able to play Virtua Tennis again.
A special greating goes to my Collection Edition of DUNE-DVD that didn't last 6 months. That would be the second time I'm looking the DVD.
Posted July 16, 2014
Steam only = I refuse to buy:

Civilization 5
X-com: Enemy unknown
Magicka
Post edited July 16, 2014 by Yodake
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)what games have you NOT bought because of DRM(333 posts)(333 posts)
(333 posts)