Posted October 04, 2008
low rated
Really, was there any point to -1ing my last post? Testing the limits is a part of beta testing. Someone has a personal vendetta. :3
Weclock
The Creeper
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
New User
Registered: Sep 2008
From Poland
Posted October 04, 2008
great, i'm pretty sure everyone will be thankful for having slower downloads because you are redownloading your games 24/7 to prove if "unlimited" has any limit... what's next? freezing yourself cryogenic for like 500 years to determine if "you own it" and *unlimited* also aplies to more distant future"?
bocaJ
Provocateur
Registered: Oct 2008
From United States
Posted October 04, 2008
Yes, I believe that there are some serious limitations in the contractual agreement that GOG offers. Discovering that you can only download something 10 times before GOG makes you contact technical support to download for the 11th time is not only insubstantial, it detracts from a conversation about serious issues.
Weclock
The Creeper
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted October 04, 2008
So are you telling me you don't want me to beta test? one person perpetually downloading should not freeze up the whole servers. It's nice if you don't want me to beta test, but that's what we're here to do. Push the limits. They're in beta, and if one person doing a little extra downloading is enough to lockup the servers, then clearly GOG is not anywhere near ready to go public.
Then again, you aren't server maintenance at GOG, so your opinion on it is null.
I take it very few of you have beta tested before. It's about pushing the limits. Trying to run exploits on the servers, doing everything you can to break it, and then give that information to the support so they can fix it.
Post edited October 04, 2008 by Weclock
Oh-Bollox
Quite a pair.
Registered: Sep 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted October 04, 2008
but that's what we're here to do. Push the limits.
You appear to be living in a film about extreme sports. Please stop.
Weclock
The Creeper
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted October 04, 2008
but that's what we're here to do. Push the limits.
You appear to be living in a film about extreme sports. Please stop.#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:65#Q&_^Q&Q#
This is what Beta testing is about, this isn't time to play nice and OBEY, because if they don't have people who are willing to do it in the spirit of helping, then they only have people who are willing to do it for personal gain.
bocaJ
Provocateur
Registered: Oct 2008
From United States
Posted October 04, 2008
but that's what we're here to do. Push the limits.
You appear to be living in a film about extreme sports. Please stop.#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:65#Q&_^Q&Q#
Weclock, first of all, if GOG was interested in stress-testing the servers, they would let everyone know so we could coordinate. All that you doing this on your own will test is how sensitive GOG's website is to a Denial of Service attack, and potentially where GOG draws the line on suspicious account activity (but that information would be useless from a beta testing perspective, as GOG already knows that).
Secondly, if you want to share beta-testing related issues with others, start a new thread.
Post edited October 04, 2008 by bocaJ
Andrewas
New User
Registered: Sep 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted October 04, 2008
They need beta testers to break the system, yes. But you are not going to seriously stress the servers by yourself, nor are you going to discover anything in the way of download limits that GOG don't already know about. All you could determine is that whatever mechanism they have in place to deal with this kind of abuse works - but even that's not terribly helpful as you can never determine if that mechanism is not working because you don't know enough about it to determine what it should be doing, or even if it actually exists.
What I suspect will happen - roughly what most admins would do in response to that kind of behavior - is to email you regarding the cost of bandwidth, and how to back up files to avoid the need for a multiple download, and please stop doing it - then lock your account for .. oh, I'd say a week, but no doubt GOG have their own policy for dealing with this.
And this has nothing to do with GOG trying to keep you from your games. There is no reasonable reason to download a game more than twice in a short space of time - and even that's a rarity, in the case of a corrupt download. Downloading the game a few dozen times is a sign that either an account is being shared, or someone is deliberately abusing the servers, or perhaps a newbie is letting everyone in his student halls install the game, and hasn't realized the power of a LAN and a shared folder. Or even a DVD to pass around.
What I suspect will happen - roughly what most admins would do in response to that kind of behavior - is to email you regarding the cost of bandwidth, and how to back up files to avoid the need for a multiple download, and please stop doing it - then lock your account for .. oh, I'd say a week, but no doubt GOG have their own policy for dealing with this.
And this has nothing to do with GOG trying to keep you from your games. There is no reasonable reason to download a game more than twice in a short space of time - and even that's a rarity, in the case of a corrupt download. Downloading the game a few dozen times is a sign that either an account is being shared, or someone is deliberately abusing the servers, or perhaps a newbie is letting everyone in his student halls install the game, and hasn't realized the power of a LAN and a shared folder. Or even a DVD to pass around.
Weclock
The Creeper
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted October 04, 2008
Yeah, I figured that if GOG's staff had problems with it, they'd tell me about it personally,
Also, I wasn't trying to derail this thread, I made a side comment and then was contiously attacked by it, and because of a lack of a PM option, it was something that was dealt with on here.
Also, I wasn't trying to derail this thread, I made a side comment and then was contiously attacked by it, and because of a lack of a PM option, it was something that was dealt with on here.
Jagji56
New User
Registered: Sep 2008
From Australia
Posted October 04, 2008
Werlock, I think your missing what these people are trying to say. You downloading one thing over and over is slowing the server down, and there for slowing everyone down. Yes it is a Beta, but I think you may have tested it enough......
Back on topic, GOG are not braking any promises about DRM, as I said in my last post, by DRM they only mean the actual software used to protect from piracy.
Back on topic, GOG are not braking any promises about DRM, as I said in my last post, by DRM they only mean the actual software used to protect from piracy.
Ransom
New User
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted October 16, 2008
Why does Weclock keep getting voted down so harshly?
My $0.02:
Things that I own I can sell. Things that I rent (permanently or otherwise) I cannot sell.
GOG's website says that I own the games I buy here.
GOG's EULA says that I'm permanently renting the games I buy here.
That's a contradiction. Which one is right?
The EULA says that I can't sell "my" game. bocaJ posted a reference to the court ruling that says that I can sell my game. Assuming the court ruling still stands, the EULA is telling me that I can't do things that I am legally allowed to do. So is the EULA invalid?
What happens if (when) the court ruling gets overturned? I'd rather have GOG telling me that I can resell "my" games than hope that DCMA 2.0 gives me any rights.
I think that the claim that you own the games you buy here misrepresents the "official" terms presented in the EULA.
Note: I'm not talking about ownership of the rights to the game. Me owning a copy of a game does not mean I own the source and IP behind the instance in my possession. Gog doesn't own the IP/copyright/etc for the games they sell either, they just have the right to sell copies of said games.
IANAL. All opinions expressed here are my own and should be taken with a grain of salt.
My $0.02:
Things that I own I can sell. Things that I rent (permanently or otherwise) I cannot sell.
GOG's website says that I own the games I buy here.
GOG's EULA says that I'm permanently renting the games I buy here.
That's a contradiction. Which one is right?
The EULA says that I can't sell "my" game. bocaJ posted a reference to the court ruling that says that I can sell my game. Assuming the court ruling still stands, the EULA is telling me that I can't do things that I am legally allowed to do. So is the EULA invalid?
What happens if (when) the court ruling gets overturned? I'd rather have GOG telling me that I can resell "my" games than hope that DCMA 2.0 gives me any rights.
I think that the claim that you own the games you buy here misrepresents the "official" terms presented in the EULA.
Note: I'm not talking about ownership of the rights to the game. Me owning a copy of a game does not mean I own the source and IP behind the instance in my possession. Gog doesn't own the IP/copyright/etc for the games they sell either, they just have the right to sell copies of said games.
IANAL. All opinions expressed here are my own and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Weclock
The Creeper
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted October 16, 2008
I did want to say there is a conflict between the Terms of Service for this website and the EULA. The EULA explicitly says we are renting the software (but according to GOG we own it under a sense different than the EULA) but the TOS which is supposed to be a 'legal agreement' as well says this:
Also, if you check the return policy, all sales are final
So I am apparently bound to agree to the EULA before I even purchase the game, because I have no idea of the content within the EULA until the game is 'purchased.'
GOG.com may not be lying, but their Terms Of Service and their EULA are in conflict. I'm going to send a letter to support asking them what I can do if I don't agree to the EULA in the installer.
infact, I did send them a letter
Once I get a reply in two or so business days, I'll post that too. Remember this is exploratory, if I'm wrong, let GOG.com tell me. No need to -1 me because I have questions. I don't -1 people because they don't know that the original Fallout icon displays one of the developers heads if it's in 48x48 mode, you get the point.
Payment and Prices You agree to pay for all Products you purchase through the Service. GOG reserves the right to Change Prices and Availability of Products, which are subject to change at any time. Payment for products is handled via the Service using SSL encryption technology and carried out by credit cards. No card details are stored on the Service. All prices include VAT or Sales Tax (rate used at the date of purchase) which will be applied based on the Country chosen at the registration stage.
Also, if you check the return policy, all sales are final
Refund Policy
All Sales are final.
All Sales are final.
So I am apparently bound to agree to the EULA before I even purchase the game, because I have no idea of the content within the EULA until the game is 'purchased.'
GOG.com may not be lying, but their Terms Of Service and their EULA are in conflict. I'm going to send a letter to support asking them what I can do if I don't agree to the EULA in the installer.
infact, I did send them a letter
In your policy it says you do not give refunds. What am I to do if I don't agree to the EULA? There is nothing before I purchase the game to educate me as to what the EULA is. And am I really purchasing the game, or am I just renting it, as the EULA describes? If I am just renting it, then is it possible to get a refund, because the item in question is not being sold? I don't technically have to pay for these games seeing as I'm not purchasing the game, I'm just renting the game, correct?
Or, as described by the disclaimer does nothing have to do with anything? Are we bound to your every will because you reserve the right to change the TOS at any time and the content of the TOS can change at any time without being updated because you disclaim the accuracy? I need to know. I really enjoy the service, but I don't enjoy getting screwed.
Or, as described by the disclaimer does nothing have to do with anything? Are we bound to your every will because you reserve the right to change the TOS at any time and the content of the TOS can change at any time without being updated because you disclaim the accuracy? I need to know. I really enjoy the service, but I don't enjoy getting screwed.
Once I get a reply in two or so business days, I'll post that too. Remember this is exploratory, if I'm wrong, let GOG.com tell me. No need to -1 me because I have questions. I don't -1 people because they don't know that the original Fallout icon displays one of the developers heads if it's in 48x48 mode, you get the point.
Post edited October 16, 2008 by Weclock
Weclock
The Creeper
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted October 25, 2008
Here's an update, no word from GOG.com staff.
Oh-Bollox
Quite a pair.
Registered: Sep 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted October 26, 2008
Surely there's a very elegant, very simple solution to problems with the EULA/TOS/etc?
Don't use GOG.
The only thing that will make them change their EULA/whatever is if people stop buying games from them because of it. At the end of the day, this is an enterprise to make money. Only a lack of money will make them change. So if a few people decide not to use GOG any more, the EULA won't change.
Even if the majority of people did stop using GOG, GOg would then need proof that the EULA was the reason. Good luck providing that, it would probably take something along the lines of a unanimous forum response. Judging from this thread alone, you won't get that.
Until this happens, it won't change.
Don't use GOG.
The only thing that will make them change their EULA/whatever is if people stop buying games from them because of it. At the end of the day, this is an enterprise to make money. Only a lack of money will make them change. So if a few people decide not to use GOG any more, the EULA won't change.
Even if the majority of people did stop using GOG, GOg would then need proof that the EULA was the reason. Good luck providing that, it would probably take something along the lines of a unanimous forum response. Judging from this thread alone, you won't get that.
Until this happens, it won't change.
Post edited October 26, 2008 by Oh-Bollox
bocaJ
Provocateur
Registered: Oct 2008
From United States
Posted November 11, 2008
high rated
Not sure if anyone still cares, but here's an update on my situation.
After writing to support with this issue, I heard back from them:
Hi,
Sorry for the late reply and thank you for your feedback.
With regards to your various points:
...[point one regarded a seperate issue]
2) EULA section "You may not transfer..." - this refers to the protection
of the publishers' intellectual property and is one of the EULA
restrictions which were required by the publishers.
3) In relation to reselling our games - you can't do this, as per our
agreement with the publishers. Personally, we'd like to allow this, but
the lack of DRMs and the manner in which we distribute games make it
impossible to track the actual transfer of ownership. It took a lot of
work to get DRM-free games in the first place.
4) EULA section "alter, modify or adapt..." - again, this is a restriction
from the publishers. I'll ask the team to check this with regards to MODs.
Rest assured that when Windows 7 comes out, we'll do the same work we did
to date and make sure all our games run smoothly on that system as well.
5) EULA section "This program is licensed, not sold..." - this section
hasn't changed in video game EULAs in 20 years and I understand it can be
misunderstood. Only the publisher owns the game, everyone else is licensed
to use it, you can find this in CDs/DVDs etc.
We understand your point of view and, while we would like to make everyone
happy, we had to make some compromises to make GOG.com work. We hope to
change the language used in our legal notices in the near future, we'll
have to get them approved by the publishers as well.
Best regards,
Peter
GOG.com Support
I wrote back asking for a refund, they denied the request as per their ToS. I asked again, noting that I was apparently never sold anything, nor was the EULA disclosed prior to sale, nor did I in the end "own" the game, as per their advertising. I was glad to see that this got bumped up, and apparently it's having some effect - support wrote back to me:
Hello again,
I was informed that we're working on a revised, more friendly version of the EULA. We're also strongly considering placing a copy of the the EULA for our games outside of the installer, so a potential customer will be able to read it prior to making a purchase.
Unfortunately, they still gave me no recourse on getting a refund, so I'm currently working on this with my credit card provider.
After writing to support with this issue, I heard back from them:
Hi,
Sorry for the late reply and thank you for your feedback.
With regards to your various points:
...[point one regarded a seperate issue]
2) EULA section "You may not transfer..." - this refers to the protection
of the publishers' intellectual property and is one of the EULA
restrictions which were required by the publishers.
3) In relation to reselling our games - you can't do this, as per our
agreement with the publishers. Personally, we'd like to allow this, but
the lack of DRMs and the manner in which we distribute games make it
impossible to track the actual transfer of ownership. It took a lot of
work to get DRM-free games in the first place.
4) EULA section "alter, modify or adapt..." - again, this is a restriction
from the publishers. I'll ask the team to check this with regards to MODs.
Rest assured that when Windows 7 comes out, we'll do the same work we did
to date and make sure all our games run smoothly on that system as well.
5) EULA section "This program is licensed, not sold..." - this section
hasn't changed in video game EULAs in 20 years and I understand it can be
misunderstood. Only the publisher owns the game, everyone else is licensed
to use it, you can find this in CDs/DVDs etc.
We understand your point of view and, while we would like to make everyone
happy, we had to make some compromises to make GOG.com work. We hope to
change the language used in our legal notices in the near future, we'll
have to get them approved by the publishers as well.
Best regards,
Peter
GOG.com Support
I wrote back asking for a refund, they denied the request as per their ToS. I asked again, noting that I was apparently never sold anything, nor was the EULA disclosed prior to sale, nor did I in the end "own" the game, as per their advertising. I was glad to see that this got bumped up, and apparently it's having some effect - support wrote back to me:
Hello again,
I was informed that we're working on a revised, more friendly version of the EULA. We're also strongly considering placing a copy of the the EULA for our games outside of the installer, so a potential customer will be able to read it prior to making a purchase.
Unfortunately, they still gave me no recourse on getting a refund, so I'm currently working on this with my credit card provider.