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HereForTheBeer: Bravo to New York!

As StingingVelvet mentioned, civil unions and marriage oughta be separate, with the unions being a legal covenant between men (okay, people. 'Men' is the convenient term.) and marriage being a covenant between a couple and their deity. In this case, we could "legalize" polygamy by not recognizing it with Man's laws but allowing them to be married under the laws of their religion. In other words, have as many wives as you want but only the first wife gets Man's legal rights of the civil union.

Why any man would want to torture himself with more women is beyond me...
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hedwards: I'd recommend looking up the FLDS or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the fundamentalist branch of the Mormon church if you don't believe that polygamy is harmful to society.
I didn't say polygamy was or was not harmful, though my joke about more women being torture could probably construed as such by the chronically humorless (NOT saying that's you). My comment about harm pertained to how those who oppose gay marriage are saying that it's harmful to society, and then I said that the homosexuals can't screw it up any worse than the heterosexuals do, which, incidentally, would include the polygamists and the FLDS folks.


But either way, it's good to see that there will be some equal legal /civil / familial rights handed to those NY couples who are already married in all but name.
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Lou: If you have any [NON RELIGIOUS NON-PERSONAL ARGUMENTS (e.g. not appealing to tradition or the majority and demonstrating that gay marriage would be harmful and not just that you dislike it) feel free to post them. Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels.
Most of your arguments are actually in favor of Civil Unions and not Marriage. As for being harmful - We can only look to history to see what has happened to societies that have embraced the Homosexual Lifestyle. I am not sure of the short term harmful aspects but look at the news this week on San Francisco - 3,000 less children than in 2000. I know there are many factors but one must be the embrace of the Homosexual Lifestyle. They are not "reproducing". I can say we just do not know. Harmful - Maybe. As for Legality:

US Federal Law States that: a marriage is the legal union of a man and a woman as a husband and wife, and a spouse is a husband or wife of the opposite sex.

Illinois - The following marriages are prohibited - a marriage between two individuals of the same sex.

Kentucky - Marriage is prohibited and void between members of the same sex.

Indiana - Same sex marriages are prohibited.

Pennsylvania - Marriage between persons of the opposite - It is hereby declared to be the strong and longstanding public policy of this Commonwealth that marriage shall be between one man and one woman.

Michigan - Marriage is inherently a unique relationship between a man and a woman.

Ohio - Any Marriage between persons of the same sex is against the strong public policy of this state.

And it goes on. Same sex Marriage is invalid in 4 of 5 States here in the US. Most are passing Constitutional Amendments. I believe because they see same sex marriage as armful to our society.

No Culture - No Religion - Harmful "Maybe" - Just the facts as I see it for now.

Side note: It does seem to be a bit odd that most postings here have been those outside the US.
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Nafe: While I absolutely respect the right to hold such beliefs and even discuss them, the beliefs themselves are not worthy of equal respect. Certain beliefs are now not acceptable in modern society
So you're no different than racists and homophobic for me. You're just on the other side of "I don't have respect for people different than me".
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FraterPerdurabo: Freedom of speech is not an absolute right by any standard, and is probably the most restricted / controlled one.
Your govt. told you that freedom of speech isn't absolute and you took it as granted. In your govt. there are no absolute rights.

For example, ownership. Try not to pay property taxes for a while and see if you are the owner of your property.

I'm not talking like things are in socialistic states, but how they should be.

For me, freedom of speech is ULTIMATE freedom and should not be narrowed by any actions and laws.

IP rights have nothing to do with freedom of speech.

So doesn't libel. You may say what you want but be ready to be sued when someone is directly offended by what you've said. It's not FORBIDDING anyone to say what he or she thinks. But not to go to jail for such thoughts. Only to pay damages to the injured party. Because you can injure someone with freedom of speech, but this is not a reason to limit this freedom. Not in any free country.

Libel is not developed in "modern societies" , it was present for ages.
Post edited June 26, 2011 by keeveek
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SLP2000: [ If it's very sexist comment, I suppose it was unpolite. And that may be the reason, because using rude words on vision is not professional, and it is something that may lead commentatot to lose his job.

This is very different from saying in polite way that you don't support same sex marriages.
That Canadian TV speaker did that on tweeter, not while he was working. Still, you said that he should lost his job because his opinion cannot be tolerated.
It's not even "polite" and "unpolite" things. When you are news commentator or football journalist, your job is to bring information, comment the match. If you're doing other things in your work, if you're using microphone for your own personal reasons, to make comments about life etc you should be fired or you should loose one salary for example. For me, the same punishment should be for man that says on the anenna he supports gay marriage and for that who says he doesn't.

Of course it's the TV station owner's call if s/he thinks that behavior deserves punishement.

Of course it has nothing to do with situations like the commentator said as a private individual somewhere what s/he thinks.
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Lou: Side note: It does seem to be a bit odd that most postings here have been those outside the US.
Well, you know, half the games (and movies) nowadays are set in New York City, so it concerns gamers around the globe ;)
Less kids = good.
I'm not going into the US politics-related debate, but I think the first part of your post deserves some answers.

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Nomorefun: If laws shouldn't be based on religious belief, what should they be based on? Personal experience? Majority rules? A couple of really old judges sit on a panel and debate what's actually legal/ethical, using their code of morals and ethics (grounded in their religious and personal beliefs)? I don't see how using basing an opinion on religious belief is any less valid than doing so on logic. At some point an individual has to make a logical choice whether or not they want to believe in a religion and try to follow it. Whether or not they represent themselves or their religion well is another matter entirely, but calling it invalid because their personal opinion is based upon religion instead of something else or what someone deems logical hardly seems fair.
So, in my view, you are basically saying that an argument being based on religion does not necessarily makes it illogical. In a way, you are right. We just have to look at why laws came to be in the first place, in primitive societies.

Though very probably informal, I can say they first appeared to improve cohesion within groups in order to improve survivability. It may be impossible to tell exactly when laws and religion mixed, but there are many guesses - to give an extra fear factor for those who might break then, to give more power to the religious leaders, etc. Anyway, we can tell that religious laws did, at first come from reason, all things considered.

And that was moral and ethics throughout most of history: whatever helped societies survive and prosper (or a few individuals who needed an ordered society to explore, but let's not get into that). It's not hard to think why homosexuality might have been outlawed in more primitive societies, as population growth was needed.

However, there is one thing reason and logic do account for that religions and traditions may not: the world changes, and so do the needs of organized societies. Christian law, for example, is based on a 2000 year old book. This book was supposedly written under direct instructions (or inspiration) from God, and therefore it's true and must be followed as it is, unless God himself comes again and changes it.

Now, religion and state, and therefore applicable laws, have been separated in the most developed countries. Laws should be, once again, based on reason and logic. However, reason itself has changed, mostly thanks to science. As survivability of any groups or human race as a whole is no longer an immediate issue, the focus is now on the well-being of the individual. Religious laws are way behind this new way of thinking. The ban on homosexuality might have been a residual tradition already by the time the bible itself was written.

And now we live in a globalized world, where you may find any kind of person anywhere, and information travels all around the world almost instantly. Compared to most of what came before this, the first world, and even a good portion of the third world, lives a golden age, brought by reason. And like it or not, reason, changing how the world developed and always adapting itself, now opposes religions, which have stalled. Not to mention religions oppose each-other, and that can only cause conflict in today's globalized world.

Finally, point is: laws, as dictated by religions, might have logic and reason at their background, however, it's an outdated form of reason, made to fit millenia-old societies and their own conflicts of survivability and power. Therefore, I call religious statements invalid.

How is passing a law based on personal belief any different than passing one based on religious belief? And if you can't pass a law based on either, how the heck would anything get accomplished?
As I said before, reason and logic, which is where even religious belief comes from in the first place. Of course, it's impossible to be completely impersonal, but that's what those terms aim for. And then, this is why they should be followed, whether you personally believe it or not.

As far as harm goes there is no substantial evidence one way or another to support that gay marriage will cause irreversible damage. Evidence will only present itself after two or three generations existing and living with gay marriage and by then it will be too late or everyone will scratch their chins and think, "Huh, what was all that fuss about 30 years ago? Things are awesome!". One side thinks it will do no harm and the other sees that only bad will come of it. Whether you base it on personal or religious belief it doesn't matter, reality is there is no concrete proof for either side, you just have to pick which side of the fence you stand on.
The problem is that harm itself is relative. Being able to see people of the same sex kissing in the streets is something religious people consider harmful by itself, as they fear their kids might do it. I, however, perceive a world in which sexual freedom is one of it's flags as a goal to be accomplished.
Post edited June 26, 2011 by Dragobr
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Lou: Most of your arguments are actually in favor of Civil Unions and not Marriage. As for being harmful - We can only look to history to see what has happened to societies that have embraced the Homosexual Lifestyle. I am not sure of the short term harmful aspects but look at the news this week on San Francisco - 3,000 less children than in 2000. I know there are many factors but one must be the embrace of the Homosexual Lifestyle. They are not "reproducing".
The US on the whole is reproducing less, not just the bastions of homosexual couples:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/births_fertility_2010/births_fertility_2010.htm

Are you certain that it's homosexuality causing that decline in SF? I can think of other local factors that would have the same impact:

- abortion rate increases
- people not having kids there because SF is so friggin' expensive
- the SF population in general has increased much slower than the rest of the US (census data: SF 3.7%, US 9.7% from 2000-2009)
- attitude shift among those who would normally consider having kids

Your argument appears to posit that people who would otherwise be reproducing are instead choosing to join into a homosexual relationship. That's, uhh, odd. "Ya know, I think I'll just be gay." It doesn't work that way.

Myself, I don't care if "marriage" gets defined as a man / woman thing, so long as civil unions are adopted in order to give equal legal rights and responsibilities to those 'other' families. Give it any damn name one wants, so long as things are equal.
Can we please make one thing clear here: whenever someone says "gay marriage", we are actually talking about a civil union with responsibilities generally correspondent to those of marriages, whether they are also called "marriages" or not.

In my country, we use "marriage" for both things anyway. And it's not like anyone wants to force churches to marry gay couples.
Post edited June 26, 2011 by Dragobr
Yeah. To be clear, when I've said "If someone wants to have marriage in church, it's theirs free will" i meant no differences.

Civil union and marriage in church should have the exact same, equal status.
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infinite9: I don't see this as a time to congratulate New York or to bash it. I personally don't care about gay marriage one way or another but I don't see why people keep using comments like "this is equality" or a promotion of "gay rights" since marriage is not a right. I don't also understand why people use terms like "progress" when talking about things like gay marriage.

I'm not implying that I'm against the New York making this decision since, as stated, I don't care either way. It's doesn't mean anything and shouldn't mean anything because marriage isn't a right and it's not going to balance the federal budget or undo high unemployment or underemployment.
Marriage is a right.

it is a right of one spouse to decide whether the other one goes on with potentially life threatening operation
it is a right of one spouse to inherit another's wealth after death
it is a right to use certain bank accounts
it is a right to be taxed appropirately

and so on

what you said about the budget is a bit weird and i do not understand it.
Post edited June 26, 2011 by lukaszthegreat
This whole topic is a giant smoke screen to distract people from the economy, and it's working. Instead of people discussing realistic options for getting us out of the $13 (give or take) trillion deficit we're in it has become more popular to point a finger at gay marrige (civil unions, take your pick of wording) and completely distract everyone. The fact numerous Republican candidates took the bait to spout off their hate speech is only further proof of how relatively unimportant this is as they have no defined solution to the other problems, so they're playing along.

Social security is bankrupt, 9-10% of Americans are still unemployed, our education system is laughably inept and loses more money with each budget cut, and we're still going strong in the Middle East with no end in sight (because as soon as we leave things will go to hell). The US Government nearly went through a furlough because politicians couldn't come to an agreement on the national budget without making some waves. One of our key allies in the war on terror, Pakistan, openly proved they can't be trusted (and we proved they can't properly defend themselves, whoops). Iran is quickly on the road to developing weapons grade plutonium and we twiddle our thumbs while putting sanctions on them hoping it'll work.

But gay marriage is the #1 hot topic in American politics... wtf?
Post edited June 26, 2011 by Nomorefun
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Dragobr: Can we please make one thing clear here: whenever someone says "gay marriage", we are actually talking about a civil union with responsibilities generally correspondent to those of marriages, whether they are also called "marriages" or not.

In my country, we use "marriage" for both things anyway. And it's not like anyone wants to force churches to marry gay couples.
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keeveek: Yeah. To be clear, when I've said "If someone wants to have marriage in church, it's theirs free will" i meant no differences.

Civil union and marriage in church should have the exact same, equal status.
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lukaszthegreat: Marriage is a right
I have to disagree with you on this point. To have the State recognize a Civil Union - basically a contract between two people for the purpose of:

one deciding whether the other goes on with a potentially life threatening operation
one to inherit the others wealth after death
either to use certain bank accounts
either to be taxed appropriately

etc...

does not constitute a Marriage.

Neither man nor government invented marriage. God ordained it, and from a legal perspective, God established at least four rules to regulate marriage.

1. One man and one woman - God ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman - Genesis 1:27 an 2:22
2. One Flesh - God ordained intimate sexual relations exclusively between husband and wife - Genesis 2:24-25
3. Procreation - God ordained the husband and wife to be "fruitful, and multiply" - Genesis 1:28. Children are God's intended natural fruit of marriage.
4. Civilization - The institution of marriage, whereby a loving husband and wife raise the next generation, is God's natural and intended means of developing civilization - Genesis 2:28

I am sorry, but to say that a State recognized Civil Union is the same as a Marriage is not correct. Marriage pre-dates all government and was established / ordained by God. To try and force God to recognize a Civil Union between a same sex couple is ridiculous at best and an abomination at worst.

If all one wants is a legally binding contract that is recognized by the State for the purpose of conducting mutually beneficial matters then a civil union or registered partnership may apply. If you want a marriage then you need to meet the criteria. Not my criteria God's.
Neither man nor government invented marriage. God ordained it, and from a legal perspective, God established at least four rules to regulate marriage.
I laughed. Marriages existed long before your God decided to present himself as a flaming bush.
Neither man nor government invented marriage. God ordained it, and from a legal perspective, God established at least four rules to regulate marriage.
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keeveek: I laughed. Marriages existed long before your God decided to present himself as a flaming bush.
How is this response mature or constructive? You're just flaming him at this point.