That's actually a sound theory. Killing off the investigator would obviously be a very bad idea, whereas we have to assume Al1 is vanilla / mafia at the moment.

I'd still like to hear about Zchinque's reasons for voting Al1, but I'd also like to hear from Al1 about the accusations thrown his way.

I just fear that lynching Al1 will not teach us anything in the slightest.

@Typhoon Hmm. A decent reply, but some points.

It is rolefishing though (intended or otherwise is of course definitely a different story) because you're openly speculating about the setup of the game and throwing out roles (regardless of whether you are Mafia or not) , and that is one of the things Mafia would love to do because they already know who's not on their team, they just need to know who to nightkill, so they hope someone will drop a hint or say something wrong to be able to reveal or hint that they're some role or other. You not only (inadvertantly or otherwise) rolefished for a cop there, but also a doctor role.

If he were a day cop, that would be on his onus to prove but speculation on that end really doesn't help the town much (until he chimes in anyway) because it muddies the water. Although you make a good point in linking his call for a massclaim with the possibility that he was going to claim something like a day cop. Perhaps how we differ in opinion here is that I did not see it as him saying he would be up for a claim, because of my following reply to Damnation.

I think if you were town, you would have voted who was most likely scum to you, regardless of his bandwagon, as long as he was not near lynch yet. You would definitely not vote a random person for which he hasn't given a reason. That would have been Zchinque at the time you unvoted.


@Damnation, this was the quote from Zchinque that made me wonder,

Referring to his #21,
That quote 1 indicated quote 2 was perhaps framed as a play on words to see who would bite, rather than him actually wanting one too.

Of course he didn't actually come out to say it, but that's how I interpreted it and that's what I then build the case on. It's actually a fairly common tactic I've seen used in other games, but I don't know for sure if Zch was doing that or not since I've never played with him before, but it was a reasonable assumption to me.


I think you're wrong here, or twisting logic. Let me present the alternative:
He claimed that Al1 was scum.
- Agreed.
If we lynch Al1, we discover if he is scum or not, while learning if Zchinque is an investigative role or mafia.
- Not true! If he flips scum, Zchinque could be a day cop, lucky village idiot, or still be Mafia bussing his own teammate who may or may not have agreed to it beforehand, so Zchinque can gain major town cred and coast to endgame (since the Mafia won't NK him). If he flips town, that does NOT mean Zch is scum either, but perhaps some wrong assumption that was made from his post. If him flipping town means that Zch is scum, then does it mean I'm scum if you flip town because I accused you first? Or that pazzer is scum if basilisek flips town cause he was the first one to vote him? Of course not. It wouldn't clear him either way. Plus even if he IS a day cop he could still be insane and be returning opposite results or whatever. It's up to him to claim if he is, but you can't just vote Al1 on that to prove it, cause the lynch proves absolutely nothing.

If we lynch Zchinque, we learn if he was an investigative role, mafia, or a paranoid whistle blower who just wanted to get conversation rolling. - Well, no argument there.

But point is that the middle bit doesn't really hold and thus the Al1 vote is veeery suspect, like trying to get onto a possible secondary bandwagon. If it was an info vote, a vote on Zch would have been more info. And you always could have retracted the vote if it approached lynch threshold too fast.

Also hehe at the mafioso superior thing. :P

To be honest, it's because I've been increasingly unsure how to interpret new developments. I don't really see how claiming not to be mafia helps me at this stage, at least without a roleclaim, something I am unprepared to do at this juncture. At the same time, the longer this goes on, the less sure I am Zchinque is mafia. My gut instinct last night was that he was, but there seem to be a number of other possibilities.

If Zchinque is a cop, he has shown his hand very early, and may well be nightkilled. Who the mafia decide to go after overnight will be interesting, and could provide a better indicator of peoples suspicions than who is lynched today.

If Zchinque is mafia, he is playing a very strange game. He must have known that his early accusation would put the spotlight on him.

One possibility that did enter my head is that Zchinque is just a vanilla character attempting to throw the mafia off the scent, either by causing general confusion or obfuscating the power roles, something that would tally with one of his posts about not roleplaying, can't find it at the moment.

Addendum to my last post:

This was the post I was thinking of.

Something about Zchinque does not add up, but that does not immediately mean he is mafia.

Well, I can still retract the vote as time goes on, but I still feel like waiting for Zchinque to confirm himself. I already posted concerning Zchinque being townie, but I felt that it was more beneficial to kill Al1 first - just in case.(I'll assume that you missed that)

To be perfectly honest, I didn't question his sanity when I was considering what to do, because I feel that a insane day cop is just too complicated. But you are right, it is a possibility. And wouldn't killing Al1 aid him in realizing his sanity (or otherwise) straight off in this situation? An insane cop can still be just as helpful as a cop, in my opinion, as long as he has worked out that he is insane. Of course, if he is paranoid than that is no help at all.

Perhaps such is his ploy? To thrown everyone off guard?
There can be a thousand reasons for his vote on you, and we will not learn which it is before he steps forward and announces it.

I appreciate your answer though, and you're quite likely right, denying it never really helps much when talking with fanatics or paranoid people.

Also, it's still day 1, how can you have felt it was him who was the culprit last night? :p

Sorry, that was mostly me.

Oh I see. A poor choice of words on my part. My apologies. Last IRL.

Speculating at power roles in general, and the cop in particular, is bad form and scummy.

Let's say for the sake of argument that I am some kind of cop, day or not. Speculation at that puts a target at my back, and increases the chances that I am killed by night.
Let's say that, still for the sake or argument, I am not any kind of cop. Worst case - the real cops comes out and claims to "counterclaim" me, and is promptly killed by the mafia.

Speculating at who are town power roles does not lead to anything good, keep it to yourself.

I can promise you that my behaviour is not due to any kind of roleplaying my role - as I've already said, I consider that (typically) useless, potentially dangerous. And I think I'm being rather productive, actually. :)

I like you.

You're not open to the possibility that both me and Al1 are townies? I'm in trouble?

I did? where? Quotes please!

Thos, however, is classical #1-nmillar. You're jumping way ahead to conclusions which are really rather contrived.


I think there was something more I was going to comment on, but I forget... Will get to it some other time.

Please see below.

Of course. You aren't going to justify anything, are you? You are just going to complain about someone backing you up and rationalizing a motivation for you. I'm tired of taking flak over trying to come to a logical conclusion as to why you voted against Al1. You called him scum, then left, not explaining anything.

You are in trouble because you are half way towards being lynched.

You called for a mass role claim when you said "Who's up for a mass claim?". If anything, most people interpreted it that way as well as me.

I did say that you could be a townie, if you'd bothered to read half of the posts that have gone through while you were away. I stated that you may have placed a random vote just to get things moving.

You know what? I'm tired of this crap. Fess up to your reasons for the lynch vote, it's really starting to get annoying.

The "mass claim" thing is obviously the key to whatever stunt Zchinque is trying to pull off here, but I'll be damned if I understand what it is.

Yeah, I give up trying to figure this out.

Unvote Al1

He can sit around playing mysterious on his own for a while. Plus, he totally just tried a face heel turn on me and tried to implicate me as scum for no real reason other then trying to rationalize the stupid vote that's going to get him killed.

He can come out with a reason now, but he may as well be speaking Ojibwe for all I care. He is untrustworthy, and is just playing little games with us. I don't like feeling like some pawn in a master plan, and for that reason I have decided to vote Zchinque.

You know what - I've just got back to this after a few hours away, and I'm amazed by all the discussion going on.

I've had a good read of a lot of things - Jesskitten, very good points against Typhoon45, but he has explained himself somewhat and although I have a few doubts I'm gonna leave it, for the following reasons..

Zchinque - repeatedly asked about votinf for Al1 -never given an answer. Quite antagonistic with your replies, and said a few things that would be exactly what a Mafia would say - wanting a mass claim (then claiming you never said it), talking about roles, trying to warn people what and what not to do.

I know I've been appealing for calm and asking for reasoned debate, but I personally think you've reasoned yourself right out of it.

Vote Zchinque