CSPVG:

So much lurking, so little to go on.

My read back on Oct 27:

As time has gone by, I lean more towards scumward here for that initial reason. Could just be evolving play style, but I have seen him prod others to post more, and opine that lurking is innately scummy. I feel that Day 1 lurking is more forgivable, but as the game progresses, players really should talk more instead of just vauge “don’t have much to contribute” posts.

Krypsyn says:
Good point on voting Robb.

Vitek says: Well, a lot, actually. I’m not too bothered by CSPVG doubting my vote on adalia, as it was early, and that could just be doubtful townie wanting more info. Ship claim was a big problem for me, though, and I’ll pick that back up soon.

Sage says:
Pretty much nothing at all.

mrkgnao says:
Apologies for the snips. Anyone else can follow the arrow link to read the whole thing. As we discussed, I do not support this argument. I follow the logic – I just come to another conclusion.

HijacK says:
This wagon makes for strange bedfellows.

Over the last few days, CSPVG himself says:
[url=http://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_24_the_not_ending_soon_war/post1215]little.

Well, the time is now to find something to contribute. Your explanation for the flavor claim to be self-centered and short-sighted:

In other words, this was a hedge against some possible future scenario… on some future day in which the group spontaneously wants to claim ship models, and you planted this seed in order to appear town-like at that time? That makes no sense to me. I get wanting to survive to keep playing, but I would think one’s overall play dictates one’s relative towniness to the group. As town, there are better options to this flavor claim. Even if the group all went mad and decided to throw in ship names, you cam state your case of why this is not beneficial or necessary.

If there’s a pro-town plan here, I don’t see it. Combine it with general refusal to play, and with no better options:

Vote CSPVG

I would say Vitek has taken the most active role in nominating CSPVG for lynch, so if you believe strongly that Vitek is scum, perhaps CSPVG is town by default. The dominos do seem to be stacked precariously… so perhaps HijacK is on to something.

CSPVG, please enter the game fully and help us out here. Tell me why I am so off base on my reads? Why the strategy to "power lurk"? How does this help town here on Day 2?

Had a few spare minutes, so entered to see what's new.
Didn't have time to read all the posts, but saw that CSPVG is already at 4 votes (I believe).

Just in case the day ends before I post again, I wanted to state my position so there is no ambiguity about wagon analysis.
I do not plan to vote for CSPVG because:
1) I already explained why I believe it is more likely he is town (his ship claim)
2) HijacK has already explained why CSPVG is more likely to have a significant power role (his ship mark)
3) I believe the reason he is lynched is his lurking (which I deplore) and little else -- that to me is not enough to warrant the possible loss of a power role

If you do lynch him, remember to get readings from him, as Sage suggested. We know about Robbeasy, but I'm not sure that more than that.

If I were to vote now, I would probably vote for Vitek, based on arguments made by Darko, dedo, Krypsyn and myself. I will not do so now because I see he has posted today and I have not read his posts, plus I want to review the arguments once more.

Be seeing you.

I have had a busy day and need to get one more thing done before I can really read over the thread. I also want to add my two cents if it comes to a lynch before I get back on. I do not believe CSPVG is scum as of right now and I will not be voting right now. I will re-read and read what others have posted in favor of his lynch when I get back on and I am willing to leave my mind open but I doubt I am going to be swayed to changing my mind of him without good evidence.

Pst, Darko, it wasn't nmillar.


Oh, I know you were as mafia. It is more than year ago, so yeah, it is quite while ago.
I was just asking if you know you were so I don't have to search for it. I need it for my... umm... school project. ;-)

First, that's not defense, it's just ridiculing me. One could say it's strawman.
Second, that's not what I was saying to you and you know it. My problem was that you said, I was your suspect back on D1 when you never even grazed me with your post and I was wondering it because you came with your long-time suspicion only after someone else mentioned me.
If I now said I disliked your role fishing back then, it made me suspect you but I never mentioned it until now, when I suddenly found you suspicious after someone else mentioned you (hypotetical situation), then it would be the same as what you did. I haven't done that though. (I wish I paid attention to the game back then, though. It would make my life easier.)
Never I said people can't use older Days things for cases.

Of course I am refraining from that. That wouldn't be nice. I hope I haven't done it in this game yet and hopefully I won't. I thank you for your warning and implore everyone to do the same.
If one, for whatever reason, mentions to other players he strongly considers something like nolynch (or even voting), then he is indeed trying to propose it.

Ahh, riiiight. It was the mafia or gang themed one, where we were all in a dive club or something? Something about shoes and a coat closet too? I think I vaguely remember that now...

Anyway, I don't remember any other times, but my memory is obviously not what it once was...

I have gone over CSPVG posts from day one and I must admit I am not as sure of my firm stance on CSPVG anymore I am going to sleep on things and go over the thread again tomorrow and focus on day 2.
Below are my notes and things I am finding off or interesting.

(114) 114
One cannot wait for the remarks about one's having posted slightly more than usual, and the eventual cries of, "But they're very slim on content, aren't they." Doomed if I do, doomed if I don't. (Are we posting this so others do not point it out as scummy later on?)

(197) 197
One has not commented in two days because one has not really felt the need to , and did not want to post something akin to, "Hello, I'm still here." and "Perhaps now would be a good time to draw up a top three scummiest list." (not very town at all - town should be talking and discussing and giving feelings and reads. Scum would be less inclined to read everything and only focus more on things directed at themselves) (Second sentence - town thing to make a list and get talking, but in a few posts later he admits to not really having a list but goes on vibes. Also this could be scum seeing where everyone is and trying to figure out where to go next)

(294) 294
Alright, if you all find it so important to post more often, even when I haven't properly thought things through, I will attempt to do so (Is this posted for a reason later why posts might seem off? Maybe just me but I feel it is more like ill do it only because it is what town wants and I want to be seen as town )

(296) 296
No lynches are never a good option. Even though it is unfortunate that most day ones end with the death of a townie, the information we receive from the lynch is preferable to no information at all. At the very least, we can attempt to analyse the vote wagon and see if we can discern any scum-like votes within it.
Having said this, I am no closer to drawing up my list of three. One should really put some more thought into that.
My initial, gut-reaction list, however, would be:
1) Robbeasy,
2) Adaliabooks,
3) Sage or HijacK.
Mind you, those are based on little more than 'vibes' I get from their posts.
(this post is the most pro town day one posts I have read of CSPVG but then he states he is not really sure on his votes but he will pick 3 and uses the vibes reason/excuse.)

(370) 370
Yogsloth: How exactly did you stick your neck out to get the game started? I don't remember this at all. In fact, I feel that you are the player that has thus far contributed the least to the game, even though you've posted more frequently than some (myself included). ----- ( Starts to build his case for Yogs with this post.)

(387) 387
If Vitek's 'scumminess' makes your teeth hurt, what does my power lurking do to you? (What is power lurking? Does this mean he is intentional lurking?)

(448) 448
Having skimmed back through the first few pages of this thread, I am still at a loss as to how yogsloth 'stuck out his neck' to get the game started. One is also a little suspect of his vote for adaliabooks in post 410. While I acknowledge that books has been acting somewhat suspect, I do not like the reasoning that is seemingly behind it. Previously (if I remember correctly), yog stated his suspicion of books, but in his post accompanying the vote, all he basically says is,"I am hoping to learn from this vote if adalia is scum or not."
Now, well this is of course the end goal of any vote, but it seems somehow odd to accompany his vote with this, at least to me. Shouldn't yog rather reiterate his reasons for suspecting books, rather than just shrugging and saying,"Well, let's see how this goes." Especially since books already had two votes to his name at this point. It seems as if yog was just trying to slide onto the vote wagon without much fuss. (Trying to build more of a case for yogs )


(559) [url=] http://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_24_the_not_ending_soon_war/post559 [/url]
unvotes flub and votes books. Hammers the vote for books. then states 4 reasons / posts for his vote and in the last reason claims his ship model to stop confusion later and then adds "That's about it, I think. Hopefully this won't be seen as a 'scumhammer', as flubbucket put it."
(He is the final vote for books -is this because he knew there was no hope to save a scum buddy and better to get in on the lynch wagon or lets end it before books can say anything else aka to protect scum buddies from any slips since books is being put on the spot? Ship model- Why claim and now? How does this help town other then to cause confusion when we came back to day and when / if the vote would come to him. He even states it is to stop confusion later.. I see it as only adding to it. And then there is the what if scum does know everything about each other from the beginning claiming the same model as books knowing he had power role and having the same model could save himself. Or hoping for a mass role claim to see where everyone sits. Lastly - He even points out he hopes his vote will not be seen as a hammer vote. Yet again worrying or beating others to the punch so he can say he was the one that brought it up. Seems like a lot of this might happen so let me point it out first.

-----Also CSPVG - why do you refer to yourself as one?

It was my impression that HijacK implied in so many words that he believes he is using a different approach in this game. Two examples from day #1:

#136: He wrote "Play styles are fun and all, but make sure you don't use the same one every game, otherwise it will be a piece of cake for mafia to read your moves. As for starting this game, I prefer to do it in an efficient way. Last 2 games the beginning was crap".

#207: In reply to my "I think the best we can say is that we don't know why he changed his style. I am with Robbeasy here in giving him the benefit of the doubt for now", he wrote "There are many ways to play as scum and given the chance to be one I would've played the exact same way in such a manner to get lynched but have the other scum on my vote wagon to gain them credibility", which implies that as scum he would have played the same as in the previous two games, but as town he is playing differently.

Whether other people, including yourself, perceive his game as different is another question.

I see what you're doing here. You're giving us free samples of stats, so that we keep you around until the end of the game, just to feed our growing addiction. Classic drug dealer approach. Don't worry, it's working.

Marvellous work! Truly much appreciated!

Red herring of the day: Flubbucket has a new avatar with #1202 on it.

While I don't see it exactly as Vitek describes it, I must admit that I was a bit surprised by Darko's reaction to Krypsyn and Vitek. I believe I called trentonlf "defensive" for less than that. While I continue to see Darko as likely to be town, the Portrait of Darko Gray is beginning to show a few wrinkles. Nothing to worry about yet.

I would like to put on record my view on the ever-so-common-day-1-no-lynch-question.

To me, it is a classic "job interview" question. The interviewer has seen it many times, knows the "correct" answer, and therefore thinks it's an "easy" question. He then penalises the interviewee for thinking about it and not coming up with the "correct" answer.

It just so happens that I too believe that no lynch is always a bad move, but that's beside the point. It's not that obvious, "regardless of alignment" ®.

I believe all this question reveals is whether the person asked has seen the question before and knows to recite the proper answer.

I seem to remember (didn't go back to check) that dedo stated after his initial reply that that's what he thought at the time, but that he then went online and found the "correct" answer, which sounds fine to me.

Just for completeness, in case you don't know it yet, the correct answer is:
"I will gladly lynch all my seven grandmothers before voting no-lynch".
You will often see it abbreviated as IWGLAMSGBVNL.

I know this is probably a weak reason, but is it only me who finds it curious he was onto flub, hammered adalia, and then flub got NK'd? And no, I am not only implying CSPVG may be a scum who gave up on his case to "seal" the deal with adalia and appear towny, but I am also implying that all of this may actually be a set up by the scum. They literally saw CSPVG's choice of votes and went for flub. Various things don't add up. I need to go over a few posts.

OK, I'm defensive towards Krypsyn, who claims I'm twisting arguments and I believe that's a lie, but why am I defensive towards Vitek? I had mentioned several times I find his "let's lynch Krypsyn the lurker" comment out of character. Him mentioning people saying they employ a different playstyle is a scum tell against me and me seeing that he didn't bother to mention that in his read of HijacK came recently. Should I have ignored it so that I wouldn't be accused of OMGUS? And then he says he's not fond of HijacK's lurker lynch of CSPVG. I'm not sure why I have to justify my willingness to vote for him.

Do you share the opinion that this line sums up my case against Vitek?
Wait till you see the one in my attic.

OK, I guess you want me to ask, so I'll ask. Did you have no intention of voting Krypsyn for lurking? Was it an elaborate ruse?

As for CSPVG, I do think it's pretty interesting he is still at 4 votes, 11 hours after the last vote.

You're right. Perhaps "defensive" is not the appropriate term for both, because your reaction to them is different. It's just that your tone towards both has changed dramatically once they listed you as scum. Towards Krypsyn it's all new because you had little interaction before, but towards Vitek I did notice a change. As a person who tends to shy away from confrontation, I find aggression less appealing, but I try not to let this affect my judgement.

Not at all. I think your case against Vitek is rather compelling.

I intended to go over your, Krypsyn's and dedo's arguments about Vitek today, but my wife kept me rather occupied. I expect a busy week at work and at home (wife beginning a new job), so will try to get to it as soon as possible.

Yeah, sorry about that, but the chance for Even-Stevening your Sherlock argument looked too good not to take advantage of :)

I already went through this, but I will do it one last time, because we are running in circles here. On D1 you were one of the people that felt more suspicious by the end of the day. That is all. You weren't top pick back then - adalia and trent were. It seems like you are suggesting that if someone doesn't say something first, they need to shut up about it, because they are sheeping. We are trying to unite ourselves against the common foe here. Of course I will voice a suspicion if someone shares it. Unlike HijacK who seems to be a bit on the one-man-army approach I'm trying to find some allies to work with. If they have similar reasoning - even more so. Our strongest feature is synergy - we are way more likely to win if we work together rather then every man for himself.

And this is exactly what happened. The argument we had made me go all the way back, re-read everything from another perspective, ponder on it and see where that gets me. And it got me here.




For the no lynch I can't say anything more in my defense than I already did. As a matter of fact mrkgnao stood up for me (thank you for that) with a great analogy that I wish I came up with. I don't really expect that everyone will believe me and I won't hold it against them, it's only fair taking into account the nature of the game. But consider this, everyone seems to know how bad of a move is to do this on D1 (I read about some scenarios that it actually may be beneficial in the end game when some more specific requirements are met). It's pretty obvious that the more experienced players would ban it right then and there and give hard time to the one who said it. Why would I do something that will put me in such a bad light if I actually know it will? Just to be able to defend myself with this exact argument later on, so I can get out of a situation I put myself into?

You say you are refraining and yet you continue to insist I was proposing it. Even if I have actually voted for nolynch it would have taken 6 more people to do the same. Neither am I Hyphotoad, nor you are mindless minions awaiting for orders. Right?

I don't really have anything else to add on this matter, so feel free to continue bashing on me for it, if you like. I won't hold it against you.



CSPVG seems to be on the brink. As I said before, I'm really curious of what he will flip when the time comes, but right now I don't really want to be part of the force that will make this happen. I have far too many people that are more or less leaning scum in my list to settle for the only one that is truly neutral, just for the sake of proceeding with the lynch. Also, we still have about 12 more days. Still no need for rushing things.