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Perfect example of DRM not working is Divinity 2: Ego Draconis which has SecuROM . Due for US release Jan 5. Googled Divinity 2 Torrent and found many available for download (UK release??) with one copy uploaded 128 days ago.
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jimbob0i0: Given that GoG has a very specific no DRM at all copy to as many PCs as you own policy I thought I'd do a bit of a search around the net.....
To my joy although the usual suspects have all the retail DRM'd games up the wazoo the gog games appear not to have spread to less than reputable sites....
So despite that there is no DRM and in fact there is a single executable to make it ultra easy.... people seem to be doing the right thing so far as GoG is concerned! Which also puts perspective to the claims that if they didn't have DRM they would lose their sales.... hmm....
So three cheers for GoG and the fantastic community and here's to an astounding 2010 and no doubt some excellent releases and materials through it!

One could argue, and I feel the position has merit, that the type of gamer who would use/know about GOG is not interested in piracy, and that this is what leads to there being no obvious piracy.
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Gundato: People tend to make the assumption that DRM is supposed to stop everyone. In actuality, it is a lot like gun control laws (and about as effective :p). The people who are going to do "bad stuff" will get their firearms illegally. But the people who might just commit a crime of passion are much more discouraged.

A crime of DRM passion?
No. Sorry, that argument is also blown to hell by the fact that the same people who implement DRM 'solutions' are the ones that are claiming the massive levels of piracy are to blame for the DRM. So they're claiming that DRM hasn't worked and that most people are pirating their games. So their solution is... more DRM. It doesn't make sense. If most people were discouraged then there wouldn't be an issue.
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jimbob0i0: The funny thing there being in principle GoG installers being a single exe to copy somewhere with no DRM should facilitate this - make it easy for joe-nobody to give to mates... but it doesn't appear to be happening.

I've tried to find nodvds for older games whose copy protection is stopping me from running the game on modern hardware. It's a lot harder to find those for older games than it is to find for newer games. In short: on the whole, most pirates aren't interested in older games.
Post edited January 01, 2010 by Navagon
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Stuff: Perfect example of DRM not working is Divinity 2: Ego Draconis which has SecuROM . Due for US release Jan 5. Googled Divinity 2 Torrent and found many available for download (UK release??) with one copy uploaded 128 days ago.

It's a European game -- it came out months ago in Europe.
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Navagon: A crime of DRM passion?
No. Sorry, that argument is also blown to hell by the fact that the same people who implement DRM 'solutions' are the ones that are claiming the massive levels of piracy are to blame for the DRM. So they're claiming that DRM hasn't worked and that most people are pirating their games. So their solution is... more DRM. It doesn't make sense. If most people were discouraged then there wouldn't be an issue.

I assume by "implement" you mean "use", since I generally haven't seen much along the lines of statistics from Securom or the guys who made Starforce (probably Starforce :p).
And let's use another metaphor: You have a simple deadbolt on your door. Someone kicks it in and robs your house. What is the solution? I'll give you a hint: It is more security :p
And, yet again, it is not for MOST people. It is for the people they can stop. The people who can't find cracks for games or the people who don't know what bit torrent is (or how to set it up). Going back to the gun control angle: You aren't going to stop the arms dealers or the assassins. But you might stop a few of the idiots who don't even understand that the sights are on top for a reason.
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Gundato: I assume by "implement" you mean "use", since I generally haven't seen much along the lines of statistics from Securom or the guys who made Starforce (probably Starforce :p).
And let's use another metaphor: You have a simple deadbolt on your door. Someone kicks it in and robs your house. What is the solution? I'll give you a hint: It is more security :p
And, yet again, it is not for MOST people. It is for the people they can stop. The people who can't find cracks for games or the people who don't know what bit torrent is (or how to set it up). Going back to the gun control angle: You aren't going to stop the arms dealers or the assassins. But you might stop a few of the idiots who don't even understand that the sights are on top for a reason.

I don't believe in locking my doors, so I'd definitely vote for a world without DRM. If the cost of not imprisoning myself in my own home is risking robbery, then fuck it, I'll risk it. I'm not attached to my stuff anyway (except my computer, partly cause I need it for work -- but I could get a new one). If I developed games, and the cost of publishing my games without DRM is risking sales, then to hell with it. I'd rather a game not constrained and less sales. Of course I would try to offer incentives to buy the game like extras and a reasonable price and whatnot.
But I'm a crazy and don't care about money much. :P
Post edited January 01, 2010 by chautemoc
DRM is a dumb idea. Just like the stock market, DRM is one of those things that we could get along much better without it but because it's already here it will never go away because there's tons of dumb people floating around in this world.
And the reason GOG games aren't found on any torrenting or P2P sites is because our community doesn't consist of dumb people who upload it, the games here on GOG have class and the common idiotic gamer (I know quite a few) only wants a graphics orgy instead of pure fun gameplay in a videogame. Case closed :P
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tb87670: DRM is a dumb idea. Just like the stock market, DRM is one of those things that we could get along much better without it but because it's already here it will never go away because there's tons of dumb people floating around in this world.
And the reason GOG games aren't found on any torrenting or P2P sites is because our community doesn't consist of dumb people who upload it, the games here on GOG have class and the common idiotic gamer (I know quite a few) only wants a graphics orgy instead of pure fun gameplay in a videogame. Case closed :P

It could also have a little something to do with GoG games being older games...the most heavily torrented titles tend to be new.
After all, many newer games that released without DRM (Prince of Persia and World of Goo, to name 2) were heavily pirated.
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Crassmaster: After all, many newer games that released without DRM (Prince of Persia and World of Goo, to name 2) were heavily pirated.

The World of Goo thing was/is just unforgivable. Ordinary pirates are just inconsiderate assholes, but those people are just.....bad people.
Post edited January 02, 2010 by chautemoc
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Gundato: And let's use another metaphor: You have a simple deadbolt on your door. Someone kicks it in and robs your house. What is the solution? I'll give you a hint: It is more security :p

No. Their solution is to simply reattach the deadbolt to the increasingly shaky door and hope that someone doesn't try it again. EA didn't do anything different with Dead Space to what they did with Spore. Same shit. Same result.
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Gundato: And, yet again, it is not for MOST people.

And yet again, you wouldn't employ such methods against a small minority. Do you have any idea how much secuROM costs? We're talking tens to hundreds of thousands. So where's the justification if you're only going to see profit increase adequate enough to cover those additional costs? Or maybe not even that? It's pointless. Games sales can never adequately be predicted. Why do you think so many titles fail?
About the only justification for DRM is that it pleases shareholders that publishers are doing their best to protect their software. In other words, it's just further evidence that many of the larger publishers have completely lost touch with their customers.
World of Goo is an interesting example. I originally pirated this game, didn't really take to it in a big way, so deleted it. What's even more interesting is that when they had the pay what you want sale I bought it! for $5 why? Because it felt like a FAIR deal. the same applies to GOG I could pirate and run many of their games in DOSBOX but the added value of not having to muck about and mostly fair prices, makes GOG an attractive proposition.
I don't know if PC games are worth the average £30 price tag over here but I do know that personally I can't justify paying so much for a game.
I think the media industry has always approached piracy backwards. Rather than focusing on stopping piracy directly, they should be lookihg for ways to make legitimate content more appealing, they already do this with special edition games, but then double the price for what? 2 kinder toys and a poster!
One of the rules in business is charge what you can get not what it's worth, well in the media world the rules have been reversed the customer now gets the product for what he wants to pay, not what it's worth. It sucks for someone either way so I won't lose any sleep over it.
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Stuff: Perfect example of DRM not working is Divinity 2: Ego Draconis which has SecuROM . Due for US release Jan 5. Googled Divinity 2 Torrent and found many available for download (UK release??) with one copy uploaded 128 days ago.

Some games do have diffrent release dates for different regions as well however, like ff13 came out for ps3 in Japan yet everyone else has to wait and or pirate.
Granted I have no clue when / if it was out in the UK im just saying :)
OH! And Darrk is your picture Caffeine ? Sorry just noticed it today for some reason.
I also don't lock my door, but having armed military personal in the next room over seems to be pretty reassuring.
Post edited January 02, 2010 by akwater
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akwater: Granted I have no clue when / if it was out in the UK im just saying :)
I also don't lock my door, but having armed military personal in the next room over seems to be pretty reassuring.

Didn't mean to imply that is came from the UK, just assuming it was a European release that was pirated as it is not available here yet . . . =)
The door thing is flawed. They release 500K or a million doors, no need to kick any one door in. Add as much security as you like, someone will pick the new lock or an insider will provide the pirates with what they need. The rest of us suffer the mess the locks create.
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Gundato: And let's use another metaphor: You have a simple deadbolt on your door. Someone kicks it in and robs your house. What is the solution? I'll give you a hint: It is more security :p
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Navagon: No. Their solution is to simply reattach the deadbolt to the increasingly shaky door and hope that someone doesn't try it again. EA didn't do anything different with Dead Space to what they did with Spore. Same shit. Same result.
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Gundato: And, yet again, it is not for MOST people.

And yet again, you wouldn't employ such methods against a small minority. Do you have any idea how much secuROM costs? We're talking tens to hundreds of thousands. So where's the justification if you're only going to see profit increase adequate enough to cover those additional costs? Or maybe not even that? It's pointless. Games sales can never adequately be predicted. Why do you think so many titles fail?
About the only justification for DRM is that it pleases shareholders that publishers are doing their best to protect their software. In other words, it's just further evidence that many of the larger publishers have completely lost touch with their customers.

Not sure if the first response was a joke or not.
But assuming it is not: Yeah, MEPC, Dead Space, and Spore all have the same DRM (essentially). It worked for MEPC, was laughed at with Spore, and was a non-issue with Dead Space. But when you compare Battlefield 2 to MEPC, there is a difference. Same with Battlefield 2 to Sim City 2000.
As for the second: Do any of us actually have statistics on this? The only ones I have EVER seen published are the World of Goo piracy statistics and the Popcap piracy statistics, neither of which are really the DRM we complain about.
DRM definitively stops the idiots. And the more complex DRM models (some flavors of Starforce that are still uncracked and Steam come to mind) can be bypassed, but are far too cumbersome for the average user (and even many power-users). It is just a balance between effectiveness and usability.
And the door metaphor was mostly just to explain why people don't give up after one crack. I figured it would help make sense, but I guess I am the only person who does not live in a safe neighborhood :p
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Gundato: And the door metaphor was mostly just to explain why people don't give up after one crack. I figured it would help make sense, but I guess I am the only person who does not live in a safe neighborhood :p

I believe it safe to say you are not the only one not living in a safe neighborhood and I also assume that is your house down the block with the eight deadbolts, bars on the windows and that really cool panic room? . . . =)