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HereForTheBeer: Or it makes one bitter and hostile toward those who take advantage. Isn't this how one comes to the conclusion that big business = bad? The feeling of being taken advantage of?
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langurmonkey: Why should one feel bitter and hostile if he or she is the one who made the mistake? It's not like he or she didn't do anything wrong. He or she did something really stupid. And yeah, a lot of people hate big business for taking advantage of people but they take advantage of people who didn't do anything wrong.
Didn't do anything wrong... Then I think this goes back to what varthshenon was trying to bring up. If I drop or misplace my wallet / phone / credit card / $20 bill, did I do something "wrong"? Do I deserve, then, to be taken advantage of because I got distracted or whatever it was that caused that brief lapse in attention?

And what "wrong" did BestBuy perpetrate on the people that it deserves specific ire?
Talking about ToS, it reminds me back when I'm playing an MMORPG (Forgot the title). I'm quite a veteran there, selling stuff InGame with RealLife money.
One day I sell something to someone, the deal is I sent the item, then he/she transfer the money. He's quite known well so I trust him, but, yeah, it's a scam in the end.
The ToS saying something like "Trading IG item with RL thing is violating the rule. And so the party that involved will be banned". I didn't read that for first, I sent an email to the costumer service, and then they banned me lol along with the scammer.
So my whole life I always think that ToS is everything. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.
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langurmonkey: Why should one feel bitter and hostile if he or she is the one who made the mistake? It's not like he or she didn't do anything wrong. He or she did something really stupid. And yeah, a lot of people hate big business for taking advantage of people but they take advantage of people who didn't do anything wrong.
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HereForTheBeer: Didn't do anything wrong... Then I think this goes back to what varthshenon was trying to bring up. If I drop or misplace my wallet / phone / credit card / $20 bill, did I do something "wrong"? Do I deserve, then, to be taken advantage of because I got distracted or whatever it was that caused that brief lapse in attention?

And what "wrong" did BestBuy perpetrate on the people that it deserves specific ire?
By dropping a wallet or an iPod or something like that, you are not making a deal with anyone. You never agreed to give away something the second it hits the floor. You never agreed to selling something that hits the ground for 1 cent. You never gave your word. The difference is, you never agreed to anything. You were simply walking around and dropped something. Without an agreement, if someone takes something, then he or she is simply a thief. My mother. She often gets tickets from cops. Why? Because she often makes mistakes like parking somewhere she shouldn't . She is a decent human being and doesn't have much money so the tickets really hurt her. But she pays for her mistakes. And she should. Why? Because it is for the good of society. If there were no consequences, to people actions. If you could just say sorry to every kind of mistake and not make good, imagine what society would be like? It would be chaos, man. And then there will be far more worse things happening than what we've talked about in this thread.
Post edited July 15, 2013 by langurmonkey
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varthshenon: Ooooooh shiiiiiet.

Errors on Our Site
Prices and availability of products and services are subject to change without notice. Errors will be corrected where discovered, and Best Buy reserves the right to revoke any stated offer and to correct any errors, inaccuracies or omissions including after an order has been submitted and whether or not the order has been confirmed and your credit card charged. If your credit card has already been charged for the purchase and your order is cancelled, Best Buy will issue a credit to your credit card account in the amount of the charge. Individual bank policies will dictate when this amount is credited to your account. If you are not fully satisfied with your purchase, you may return it in accordance with Best Buy's Return Policy.

EDIT : Don't hate me please.
As far back as I can remember, invoices always had a thing on the bottom "E&OE", which meant "Errors and Omissions Excepted", so this is nothing new really.
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varthshenon: Talking about ToS, it reminds me back when I'm playing an MMORPG (Forgot the title). I'm quite a veteran there, selling stuff InGame with RealLife money.
One day I sell something to someone, the deal is I sent the item, then he/she transfer the money. He's quite known well so I trust him, but, yeah, it's a scam in the end.
The ToS saying something like "Trading IG item with RL thing is violating the rule. And so the party that involved will be banned". I didn't read that for first, I sent an email to the costumer service, and then they banned me lol along with the scammer.
So my whole life I always think that ToS is everything. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Well because they own the MMORPG, they have the right to not let you play it anymore. Just like every single person has the power to kick you out of their house or apartment. That's not real power though.
I might ask my lecturers about this stuff as I have E-Commerce class in my college and see how they respon this lol
Maybe it'll come out on my final test lmao
Post edited July 15, 2013 by varthshenon
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langurmonkey: Well because they own the store, they have the right to not let you buy it anymore. Just like every single person has the power to kick you out of their house or apartment. That's not real power though.
FTFY
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What makes me so emotional is that I'm basically arguing against chaos in society. You think I really care, a bunch of people didn't get their 1 cent Metro Last Light copies? Why should I? I have my copy that I can play anytime I want. I had no dreams of purchasing 100 copies for $1 and selling each copy for more to make money. No. I'm arguing for personal responsibility. Not just from BB but from everyone because without personal responsibility, honor etc, societies fall into a kind of chaos. A chaos that involves people constantly lying to each other. A chaos that involves people being unable to trust other people. A chaos that involves people thinking they can just do whatever they want because that is what is right for them. What kind of society is that? A shit one. And our society today is moving towards this chaos. So that is why I'm raging because if one day, nobody has personal responsibility and honor, then the quality of my life will be lowered to a point it is best to become a hermit.
Post edited July 15, 2013 by langurmonkey
Concerning the TOS mentioned further above: they don't apply if they contradict any valid law. Corporations can write whatever they want into their TOS or EULA, but these texts NEVER have precedence over national or state law. So the question is not what BB wrote in their TOS, but if backing out of a offered deal is legal, if the offer was an error. Also, if you want to claim an error, it is the question who has to proove that it actually was an error and not just an intended publicity stunt. ... I can't answer these questions for the USA, but from what I heard so far in various cases, I guess that the law is more on the corporations side. So I guess the burden of proof would be on the customer side to proove that it was NOT an error. Which is next to impossible and gives corporations free reign to make calculated 'errors' to get news coverage.

But I don't think these discussions are going anywhere. There are some who see the dangers of a world where corporations can wiggle out of every deal by stating "sorry, it was an error!". And there are others who defend the corporation's right to make errors and get away with it. And I don't think any number of arguments will change these positions. Especially since this thread already had deteriorated past the point of sensible discussions.
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langurmonkey: Well because they own the store, they have the right to not let you buy it anymore. Just like every single person has the power to kick you out of their house or apartment. That's not real power though.
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Shaolin_sKunk: FTFY
No, the second BB took money from the customers, they sold copies of the game. Once something is sold, it is not yours anymore... They made deals, then broke them. Owning a store doesn't mean it's okay to break deals. What we are talking about in this thread and someone getting banned from an MMORPG are two extremely different things. And what I meant to say is they own the servers that allow you to play the MMORPG. When you purchase an MMORPG, you don't purchase the servers needed to play the game so of course, you can get cut off anytime. No deal is made that = you can play this MMORPG for as long as you want with our servers.
Post edited July 15, 2013 by langurmonkey
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varthshenon: So ToS doesn't have any meaning?

EDIT : Asking, not jerking.
It depends. Here and in most european countries the clauses that take away consumer rights such as the "no-sue clause" are completely invalid and don't mean shit. In the US it seems to mean something, though.

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langurmonkey: I'm glad i don't live in Brazil then because I wouldn't want to live in a country with courts like that. And when did a TOS = the words of God? Fuck the TOS.
Our consumer protection system is actually better than yours. Our consumer laws are inspired by the ones in european countries, which are indeed much more consumer protective than the ones in the US.
Post edited July 15, 2013 by Neobr10
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Lifthrasil: There are some who see the dangers of a world where corporations can wiggle out of every deal by stating "sorry, it was an error!".
Yeah me and I don't get why other people don't see the dangers.. This will lead to chaos. If this happens often enough. Not honoring deals will become the norm... Then who can you do business with? Who can you trust? What is to stop people from just advertising pure bullshit? Like a game for 1 cent and then later, you get a bill that says, you have to pay $100000 for the game because the previous deal was unacceptable for the seller. Why? Because there was a mistake. People just changing the rules and behaving selfishly without any personal responsibility, honor etc, will lead to this kind of chaos. And in such a world, douche bags, corporations and other bad people will have a license to roam free and do whatever they want as long as they can prove, there was a mistake. And I imagine most people in this world will be miserable because nobody keeps their word. Fathers abandoning wives and children because him getting married and having kids was a mistake. I'm sure if you were an orphan who was abandoned by your parents because they saw you as a mistake, you'd see the importance of personal responsibility.
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varthshenon: So ToS doesn't have any meaning?

EDIT : Asking, not jerking.
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Neobr10: It depends. Here and in most european countries the clauses that take away consumer rights such as the "no-sue clause" are completely invalid and don't mean shit. In the US it seems to mean something, though.

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langurmonkey: I'm glad i don't live in Brazil then because I wouldn't want to live in a country with courts like that. And when did a TOS = the words of God? Fuck the TOS.
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Neobr10: Our consumer protection system is actually better than yours. Our consumer laws are inspired by the ones in european countries, which are indeed much more consumer protective than the ones in the US.
Then the courts in your country in favor of people not honoring deals must be the one exception. Because being in favor of not honoring deals due to mistakes is against consumers. And just bad for the country.
Post edited July 15, 2013 by langurmonkey
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HereForTheBeer: And what "wrong" did BestBuy perpetrate on the people that it deserves specific ire?
Hating gaming companies seems to be the trend nowadays. Remember the "worst company in America" award? Guess who won it? EA, and i'm pretty sure there are phone and banking companies FAR worse than EA.
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HereForTheBeer: And what "wrong" did BestBuy perpetrate on the people that it deserves specific ire?
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Neobr10: Hating gaming companies seems to be the trend nowadays. Remember the "worst company in America" award? Guess who won it? EA, and i'm pretty sure there are phone and banking companies FAR worse than EA.
Hate doesn't come out of nowhere. It's not like someone wakes one day and hates EA.
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langurmonkey: Hate doesn't come out of nowhere. It's not like someone wakes one day and hates EA.
No. But while I share your mistrust of corporations, you must admit that there are worse companies than EA. Worst gaming company I would understand (though there is a strong contender for that position named Ubisoft). But worst company of the world? No. That's just ridicolous. For that, gaming is by far not important enough on a global scale. About every major financial holding company has done more damage than EA. Not to speak of BP and their likes. I think that causing major damage to the environment or plunging the world economy into a global crisis for personal gain both are bad on an entirely different scale than selling some mediocre computer games with bad DRM.
Post edited July 15, 2013 by Lifthrasil