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General discussionWindows 10 boot folder.(20 posts)solved(20 posts)solved
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Posted February 08, 2016
I have Windows 10 on one computer. Yes, it's terrible. But it's free and the PC in question doesn't get used for much more than gaming so I'm making do.

Anyway, being terrible, Win10 has installed a Boot folder on a completely separate drive to the actual drive Windows was installed to. Why? Windows 10; that's why.

But what I'm wondering is is there's any way I can undo this as I can't format or remove this other drive without losing the ability to actually start Windows (it really is that stupid). Also, I can't copy the Boot folder over to the drive Windows is installed on. Because obviously that would be too easy.

So I'm left wondering if there's any way around this without reinstalling the whole bastard thing again (or Linux or buy another copy of Windows or anything else that's not an actual solution).

Any help would be appreciated.
This question / problem has been solved by Maighstirimage
Posted February 08, 2016
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Navagon: I have Windows 10 on one computer. Yes, it's terrible. But it's free and the PC in question doesn't get used for much more than gaming so I'm making do.

Anyway, being terrible, Win10 has installed a Boot folder on a completely separate drive to the actual drive Windows was installed to. Why? Windows 10; that's why.

But what I'm wondering is is there's any way I can undo this as I can't format or remove this other drive without losing the ability to actually start Windows (it really is that stupid). Also, I can't copy the Boot folder over to the drive Windows is installed on. Because obviously that would be too easy.

So I'm left wondering if there's any way around this without reinstalling the whole bastard thing again (or Linux or buy another copy of Windows or anything else that's not an actual solution).

Any help would be appreciated.
7 does the same if it can, right? Can't something like EasyBCD be used if you want to move it?

Edit: quick search result
Post edited February 08, 2016 by Cavalary
Posted February 08, 2016
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Navagon: I have Windows 10 on one computer. Yes, it's terrible. But it's free and the PC in question doesn't get used for much more than gaming so I'm making do.

Anyway, being terrible, Win10 has installed a Boot folder on a completely separate drive to the actual drive Windows was installed to. Why? Windows 10; that's why.

But what I'm wondering is is there's any way I can undo this as I can't format or remove this other drive without losing the ability to actually start Windows (it really is that stupid). Also, I can't copy the Boot folder over to the drive Windows is installed on. Because obviously that would be too easy.

So I'm left wondering if there's any way around this without reinstalling the whole bastard thing again (or Linux or buy another copy of Windows or anything else that's not an actual solution).

Any help would be appreciated.
It does the same thing since Vista.
Why would you want to move it?
Write your own OS if you don't like that they changed some things.
Installing Linux after Windows still works and GRUB also installs nicely.
Posted February 08, 2016
Background:
Traditionally x86 computers have used something called BIOS to start up the hardware before the OS can be launched, but it is technology going back to 16-bit (or even 8-bit?) systems and has long since started showing its limitations. Now we have a modern and much more powerful alternative, (U)EFI.

UEFI is (of course) to a great extent developed by Microsoft (and thus uses the same PE executable format that Windows does) and was first available and used (as far as their systems are concerned) in Windows 8 (may have been used earlier by GNU/Linux systems, I don't remember, but it's likely given that many distributions have a quicker release schedule than Windows, or even rolling updates). It is also used by most --if not all-- common operating systems today, Windows, OS X, GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, ...

Now, UEFI requires its boot binaries to sit on the first partition of the drive, though I do not remember if it's required that they sit on the first drive of the system (I don't think so), and (nearly?) always sit in a folder called "boot" (I don't know if this is required either). These limitations are present regardless of the OS you run, as long as you are on (U)EFI hardware (though some EFI chips can be set to act in legacy BIOS mode so that you can run old OSes that don't yet support EFI).

If installed on a fresh drive, Windows will most likely create a 500MB partition for the boot data and fill the rest of the drive with a second partition for everything else. The "boot" partition shouldn't be shown in Windows Explorer, however, so if you're seeing it, somethings slightly wrong but nothing critical. If you tried to install Windows on an existing non-first partition, then yes, the boot folder and the UEFI binaries will be placed on the first partition.
Posted February 08, 2016
Also some Linux distributions install the grub in the hda0 regardless of it is or not the first boot drive.
Posted February 08, 2016
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Maighstir:
Nah, doesn't have to be on the first drive. I have 2 HDDs with a Windows install on each, and each has such a partition. But it's 100 Mb, on 7 at least.
It doesn't need to be a separate partition though, as you can use an utility to move it to the partition with the OS, and that thread I found says it works in 10 too. May need to have that as first I guess, never tried to know for sure.
As for it not showing in explorer, that's just because it's not assigned a drive letter by default. If you have another Windows install you'll see its boot partition in that, or you can always assign and unassign drive letters yourself, to unhide or hide it.
Posted February 08, 2016
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Maighstir: Background:
Traditionally x86 computers have used something called BIOS to start up the hardware before the OS can be launched, but it is technology going back to 16-bit (or even 8-bit?) systems and has long since started showing its limitations. Now we have a modern and much more powerful alternative, (U)EFI.

UEFI is (of course) to a great extent developed by Microsoft (and thus uses the same PE executable format that Windows does) and was first available and used (as far as their systems are concerned) in Windows 8 (may have been used earlier by GNU/Linux systems, I don't remember, but it's likely given that many distributions have a quicker release schedule than Windows, or even rolling updates). It is also used by most --if not all-- common operating systems today, Windows, OS X, GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, ...

Now, UEFI requires its boot binaries to sit on the first partition of the drive, though I do not remember if it's required that they sit on the first drive of the system (I don't think so), and (nearly?) always sit in a folder called "boot" (I don't know if this is required either). These limitations are present regardless of the OS you run, as long as you are on (U)EFI hardware (though some EFI chips can be set to act in legacy BIOS mode so that you can run old OSes that don't yet support EFI).

If installed on a fresh drive, Windows will most likely create a 500MB partition for the boot data and fill the rest of the drive with a second partition for everything else. The "boot" partition shouldn't be shown in Windows Explorer, however, so if you're seeing it, somethings slightly wrong but nothing critical. If you tried to install Windows on an existing non-first partition, then yes, the boot folder and the UEFI binaries will be placed on the first partition.
To be honest, I've never really looked into the actual boot partition. I just accepted its necessity and left it well alone. So I don't know what's in there.

But the thing is, that boot partition is on the SSD (Windows drive) where it belongs. That's why there's this confusion about Win 10 installing boot-necessary files on the HDD. Which only has the one partition.

So does that mean the boot partition on the SSD is the vestigial remains of the Win7 install that was then 'upgraded' to Win 10 and the files on the HDD were installed on there during that process? If so this is actually a bigger mess than I thought it was. That means that Win10 thinks it's a good idea to use an entire HDD as a boot partition and managed to completely overlook the existing boot partition.

Is that what this is? Because the ineptitude is starting to become overwhelming.
Posted February 09, 2016
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Maighstir: Now, UEFI requires its boot binaries to sit on the first partition of the drive,
By convention.
Posted February 09, 2016
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Navagon: Win10 has installed a Boot folder on a completely separate drive to the actual drive Windows was installed to. Why? Windows 10; that's why.
Although Windows some some questionable things, i can't say this is one of them. Absurd maybe, but maybe not.

I remember a long time ago Linux machines did the same thing. When i read about it, it's actually that the BIOS and limitations of Real Mode (16bit) could only access from a boot sector the first xx Megs of your hard drive, which is like 32-256 (Compressed kernel images are about 1-2Mb); That's just to boot it up. As such the first partition in a older Linux system would be the boot folder, where you'd put the bootstrap code, the kernel and the initial filesystem in place (if applicable) to boot the system, after the kernel boots and has full protected mode 32bit access it moves onto the real booting stage and has full access to your hardware.

But seriously that was to get around a technical limitation, not just convention. On the other hand the Unix style of mounting folders is probably superior as you can just drop in and replace a mount point and the system won't notice the difference, vs having drive letters assigned to them (not to mention the natural limit of 26 mount points, 2 being floppy disks no longer used, vs unlimited [tiny](by some distros)[/tiny] or 256 by default)

But i haven't kept up with most of the technology changes in the last 20 years.
Post edited February 09, 2016 by rtcvb32
Posted February 09, 2016
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rtcvb32: On the other hand the Unix style of mounting folders is probably superior as you can just drop in and replace a mount point and the system won't notice the difference, vs having drive letters assigned to them (not to mention the natural limit of 26 mount points, 2 being floppy disks no longer used, vs unlimited [tiny](by some distros)[/tiny] or 256 by default)
You can mount partitions as directories in Windows as well, since at least Windows 2000. Might have been possible earlier as well, but haven't really tinkered with it on 95 and/or NT.
Posted February 09, 2016
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Maighstir: Now, UEFI requires its boot binaries to sit on the first partition of the drive,
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Gydion: By convention.
Yeah, I must have remembered wrongly from my investigations from when I was installing Arch. I now cannot find any reference at all to it being required as the first partition. I don't know why that false information was so thoroughly stuck into my brain.
Posted February 09, 2016
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JMich: You can mount partitions as directories in Windows as well, since at least Windows 2000. Might have been possible earlier as well, but haven't really tinkered with it on 95 and/or NT.
I can't seem to do it. Maybe it has to be native NT partitions only, I'm not sure, as my ramdrive doesn't show up as an option or anything.
Posted February 09, 2016
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rtcvb32: I can't seem to do it. Maybe it has to be native NT partitions only, I'm not sure, as my ramdrive doesn't show up as an option or anything.
You can mount to an NTFS partition (basic or dynamic), and the partition you are mounting must not be already assigned to a letter (or other folder). Right click the partition you want to mount, choose "Change Drive Letter and Paths" and proceed from there.
Not sure about Ramdrives, but it should work just fine.

P.S. Do take a look here as well, it also has the information on how to use the command line if that is what you prefer, and you should be able to add it as a startup script as well.

P.P.S. What program do you use for creating the ramdrive?
Posted February 09, 2016
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rtcvb32: I can't seem to do it. Maybe it has to be native NT partitions only, I'm not sure, as my ramdrive doesn't show up as an option or anything.
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JMich: You can mount to an NTFS partition (basic or dynamic), and the partition you are mounting must not be already assigned to a letter (or other folder). Right click the partition you want to mount, choose "Change Drive Letter and Paths" and proceed from there.
Not sure about Ramdrives, but it should work just fine.

P.S. Do take a look here as well, it also has the information on how to use the command line if that is what you prefer, and you should be able to add it as a startup script as well.

P.P.S. What program do you use for creating the ramdrive?
The same drive can definitely be mounted at multiple locations at the same time, but yes, the location it's mounted to must be either an empty folder on an NTFS drive, or an unused drive letter.
Posted February 09, 2016
Boot fodder would be a better name for win 10.
Like i said , if time comes we have to use win 10 it will be alone on a pc, with nothing on it but a firefox browser and chrome browser and maybe, just maybe that awfull steam shites, so there be nothing going on for these to phone home to.

Anyways windows has completely gone down the drain together with microsoft, i wonder what will be next: a voice greating you at login , calling you by your first name, and asking how the wife is doing or something like that, cause it looks like thats what these mickeysoft controlfreaks are dreaming to be able to do, to know everything about everyone.
I think they watched to many sf movies like Robocop and their OCP City and all that stuff, where the big corporates are boss and the people are there loyal servants.
Maybe they are planning to put DRM into the people, now that would be something and a good way to control them.
Post edited February 09, 2016 by gamesfreak64
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General discussionWindows 10 boot folder.(20 posts)solved(20 posts)solved
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