It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
RWarehall: Because with every innocent prisoner who might have some new evidence, you'd also have to allow every "innocent" criminal a new trial as well. There is a reason one is not allowed unlimited re-trials to prove one's innocence.
An interesting thing to ponder. I suppose it comes down to two opposing points of views (please excuse the density of double negatives):
It is better that the non-innocent will not go unpunished (even if it means innocents may be punished).
It is better that innocents not be wrongfully punished (even if it means that non-innocents may go unpunished).
Post edited February 14, 2016 by babark
avatar
PetrusOctavianus: Your hate speech. You know, gloating over someone's death.
avatar
dtgreene: Where did I do that? (I don't see any of that in the OP.)
"Is it bad that I am happy that he died? "

Clearly, people think that it is bad.
high rated
avatar
adaliabooks: So even though it could be proved someone is innocent, just because they have exhausted their rights of appeal they should still be put to death? Nice.
No, he didn't say they should or shouldn't be put to death. He merely said there is nothing in the US Constitution regarding this.

You seem to be mixing up the legislature and juidiciary.

avatar
adaliabooks: but the idea that the law is a fixed thing that shouldn't change at all is clearly flawed.
Of course.
But you seem to forget Scalia was a judge, not a congressman. His job was not to create or change laws, or to decide whether they're morally "good" or "evil" but to make rulings based on existing ones. If the law is bad, blame the legislature who made it, not the juidiciary.

That aside, as RWarehall explained, there is a solid reason behind double jeopardy.
avatar
ZFR: No, he didn't say they should or shouldn't be put to death. He merely said there is nothing in the US Constitution regarding this.

You seem to be mixing up the legislature and juidiciary.

Of course.
But you seem to forget Scalia was a judge, not a congressman. His job was not to create or change laws, or to decide whether they're morally "good" or "evil" but to make rulings based on existing ones. If the law is bad, blame the legislature who made it, not the juidiciary.

That aside, as RWarehall explained, there is a solid reason behind double jeopardy.
I'm probably misunderstanding the whole situation then..

I have to disagree with that.. I think that anyone making a decision like that has to take morality into it (whether they are a judge or jury or whatever), that's surely the point of their job? If it was just a strict matter of following the law we could probably have a computer make the decisions instead...
avatar
RWarehall: This is the way the American criminal justice system has always worked from it's inception...
You get one trial to defend your innocence. You win, you cannot be tried again for the crime(s). You lose, you lose. While you can appeal for procedural errors, that was your trial and any appeal is meant to correct any procedural issues.

What some are seemingly suggesting is that one should have a right to a new trial if new evidence comes forth later. While people talk now about new DNA techniques, it could be what...a new witness...anything. Can you possibly imagine what would happen if you got your wish? Every single convicted criminal, maybe getting a friend of a friend to play witness for a new trial. Lose that one, try again. It's well known how backed up the legal system can get now. Can you imagine what it would turn into? Because with every innocent prisoner who might have some new evidence, you'd also have to allow every "innocent" criminal a new trial as well. There is a reason one is not allowed unlimited re-trials to prove one's innocence.

Call Scalia evil for that decision, but what he is clearly saying is you cannot change the laws based on "feelz". There are established laws that have been in place for over 200 years and just because a mob of people think someone might be innocent, they somehow must be entitled to a new trial. It has never worked that way and for good reason.

Some states have made recent exception for DNA evidence. That is their right by passing a new law, but generally speaking, the legal recourse is to seek a pardon. And as a Supreme Court justice, Scalia had to rule by the law. Frankly, with that decision, I don't see how any other decision could be made.

Just shows how poorly educated so many people are with regards to real-life issues such as the law.
avatar
adaliabooks: I haven't really got much knowledge of the American justice system, or even particularly our own.

I think over here an appeal can be made in light of new evidence or something similar (to a certain point anyway, I think you have a limited number of appeals, to successively higher courts), so maybe it is just a different system / culture thing, though I could be wrong.

I don't see that as being a bad idea, though there should be some kind of limit on what new evidence is considered (for example let the judge decide if it's worth actually retrying someone based on new evidence, which would hopefully weed out any close friends popping up with substantiated evidence as you suggest), but I suppose that's another can of worms too...
I may be misunderstanding the system, but wouldn't it possible for someone to be found innocent of a crime and for new evidence to come to light which proves they are not?
Surely there should be some method to deal with such cases as well as those of innocent people going to prison for crimes they didn't commit?

I disagree, the length of time a law has been in place is no reason it shouldn't be changed or overturned if the reasons are good. Maybe in this instance that decision was the right one (thank you for explaining more about the situation), but the idea that the law is a fixed thing that shouldn't change at all is clearly flawed.
When I did provide the real quote of the actual official response, I only quoted the part that was bastardized in the media. Further on, he has more to say that clearly does not show him to be as "evil" as certain activists want you to believe...

We granted certiorari on the question whether it violates due process or constitutes cruel and unusual punishment for a State to execute a person who, having been convicted of murder after a full and fair trial, later alleges that newly discovered evidence shows him to be “actually innocent.” I would have preferred to decide that question, particularly since, as the Court’s discussion shows, it is perfectly clear what the answer is: There is no basis in text, tradition, or even in contemporary practice (if that were enough), for finding in the Constitution a right to demand judicial consideration of newly discovered evidence of innocence brought forward after conviction. In saying that such a right exists, the dissenters apply nothing but their personal opinions to invalidate the rules of more than two thirds of the States, and a Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure for which this Court itself is responsible. If the system that has been in place for 200 years (and remains widely approved) “shocks” the dissenters’ consciences, post, at ____, perhaps they should doubt the calibration of their consciences, or, better still, the usefulness of “conscience-shocking” as a legal test.
I nonetheless join the entirety of the Court’s opinion, including the final portion (pages 869-870)—because there is no legal error in deciding a case by assuming arguendo that an asserted constitutional right exists, and because I can understand, or at least am accustomed to, the reluctance of the present Court to admit publicly that Our Perfect Constitution 1 lets stand any injustice, much less the execution of an innocent man who has received, though to no avail, all the process that our society has traditionally deemed adequate. With any luck, we shall avoid ever having to face this embarrassing question again, since it is improbable that evidence of innocence as convincing as today’s opinion requires would fail to produce an executive pardon.
My concern is that in making life easier for ourselves we not appear to make it harder for the lower federal courts, imposing upon them the burden of regularly analyzing newly-discovered-evidence-of-innocence claims in capital cases (in which event such federal claims, it can confidently be predicted, will become routine and even repetitive). A number of Courts of Appeals have hitherto held, largely in reliance on our unelaborated statement.
avatar
RWarehall: Because with every innocent prisoner who might have some new evidence, you'd also have to allow every "innocent" criminal a new trial as well. There is a reason one is not allowed unlimited re-trials to prove one's innocence.
avatar
babark: An interesting thing to ponder. I suppose it comes down to two opposing points of views (please excuse the density of double negatives):
It is better that the non-innocent will not go unpunished (even if it means innocents may be punished).
It is better that innocents not be wrongfully punished (even if it means that non-innocents may go unpunished).
Adjust the slider to a happy mix of most guilty get caught and most innocent go free. No matter what you do, there will be innocent that get wrongly punished and guilty that run free in the dynamics of power.
Actual marriage isn't a right. It's not mentioned in the Bill of Rights, and everyone has to apply (and be approved for) a license. I do not understand why people say it is a right that was being denied. There is no trampling of a Right here, but left wing spinners will spin it however they see fit. Why is it gay people who were denied marriage licenses were being denied a simple right, but straight people who were also denied marriage licenses weren't? Sure there were exponentially more gay people denied for an obvious reason (the law didn't allow for same sex marriage) but it was a legal reason. I'm not arguing that the law being overturned was wrong. I'm glad it was. My point is more on the angle of the argument. The argument taken was always that marriage is a basic right, and it isn't.
avatar
budejovice: Average length of confirmation of Supreme Court justices is 73 days. Obama has 341 left. And why would the GOP prefer the choice of Sanders, Clinton, or Trump?
avatar
drealmer7: Yeah, I really think Obama is going to pop someone in there fast so it doesn't become an election issue and to ensure a more liberal judge as opposed to whoever the GOP or Hilary would choose if they win.

Plus, that is a great way for a president to leave more legacy, Obama will not pass on this opportunity methinks.
Yes, President Obama will nominate someone. However, the chances of the GOP controlled Senate confirming anyone that Obama nominates is slim. I hope I am wrong about that.
avatar
docbear1975: Yes, President Obama will nominate someone. However, the chances of the GOP controlled Senate confirming anyone that Obama nominates is slim. I hope I am wrong about that.
Why? I'm done with Obama screwing up this country. There needs to be a breath of fresh air.
avatar
bad_fur_day1:
avatar
bad_fur_day1:
Just listen to something else othet than Linking Park once in a while that will fix it.
avatar
paladin181: I do not understand why people say it is a right that was being denied.
Short explanation: legal rights change as the society which is governed changes. See: every federal law passed since 1789.

Hyperbolically-inappropriate analogy: it was once a protected right for white people to own black people. We even had a tussle about that, once.

Mollifying addendum: Since benefits are given to those in a marriage, denying license based on who someone is causes them a legal harm. Though the path is wending, the benefits of marriage were considered basic; denying someone those benefits had to be done on a case by case basis, instead of as a group, which is considered discriminatory. Basically, the essence of the person cannot be considered when deciding to permit something - only the things they do and the effects the permission will have.

Thus, you may not consider marriage a right, but the people who make the rules do. And their opinion is more valuable than yours.

EDIT: Also, you may find the text of the ninth amendment illustrative of why your entire argument is flawed.
Post edited February 14, 2016 by OneFiercePuppy
avatar
hedwards: Calling somebody who would knowingly send an innocent man to be executed for purely pedantic reasons, isn't evil? That's just one rung on the ladder of evil below actually shooting somebody.
avatar
Brasas: How about having your own sons executed for conspiracy? Is that evil?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lictors_Bring_to_Brutus_the_Bodies_of_His_Sons

It's like you guys can't accept other people's principles, like for example to uphold the letter of the law. Deontological moral positions do not concern themselves with consequences - by definition.

Your black or white consequntialist manichaeism is no better than the deontological variety.
That's not principled that's murder. If he wasn't a Supreme Court Justice we'd normally call that conspiracy to commit murder and he'd be in prison for a very long time.
avatar
dtgreene: Why was this topic "low rated"?
avatar
Brasas: See my reply to budejovice above. Your being happy at someone's death probably has something to do with it...
Happy at the death of somebody that made the lives of millions worse because he couldn't get his head out of his own ass to do his job like a competent jurist. Bottom line is that originalism hasn't been a viable path to take in at least 200 years. We can't ask the people who wrote and ratified the constitution to tell us what they meant, so it's a matter of reading tea leaves.
avatar
adaliabooks: I don't know anything about the man other than what has been said here and a few articles in the internet about his death, but this here:

If that's not evil I don't know what is.

And to those trying to say that being happy at someone's death is wrong, you only say that because you happen to support his beliefs. I'm sure if some important liberal figure (Obama? I don't really know who is on which 'side') where to die you would have a different view.

I will freely admit I was glad when Margaret Thatcher died, even though she was long past the time she was involved in politics, because I think she was an evil bitch who did a lot of harm to a lot of people.

I was glad when Gadafi was killed, and would be glad if Kim Jong Un died too.
That's not to say this judge was as bad as any of those people, but to say it is wrong to be glad if someone is dead is an overly simplified view of life and morality.
avatar
RWarehall: You do know that he never said that. Not at all. It's a common misquote of the man. But I guess don't let the facts get in the way of a good story, right? Guess the mass media slandering of a dead person is all fine and good by you considering you don't like the guy. Just as completely oversimplifying the court decisions or placing one side of these disputes as "Evil" as if that makes any kind of a point.

The correct quote
"There is no basis in text, tradition, or even in contemporary practice (if that were enough), for finding in the Constitution a right to demand judicial consideration of newly discovered evidence of innocence brought forward after conviction. In saying that such a right exists, the dissenters apply nothing but their personal opinions to invalidate the rules of more than two thirds of the States, and a Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure for which this Court itself is responsible. If the system that has been in place for 200 years (and remains widely approved) “shocks” the dissenters’ consciences, post, at ____, perhaps they should doubt the calibration of their consciences, or, better still, the usefulness of “conscience-shocking” as a legal test."

Basically stating the truth that no law exists forcing a court to re-open a case after conviction and all appeals have been exhausted. Again, people ignorant about the rules of law.

So how do you feel now calling Scalia "evil" over a quote he never made? Remorseful? Or do you now double-down picking out something else you disagree with him over.

Funny how you and every other liberal fruit loop in this thread wants to paint anyone who disagrees with them as some sort of conservative. Fact is, I've never voted for a Republican presidential nor gubernatorial candidate and I believe I have voted in every such election in the last 30 years.

While I may not agree with many of his decisions, I respect his right to have a differing opinion. Some people just don't get it and have to turn everything into "us vs. them".
That's ridiculous, people regularly get let out of prison because the prosecutors in the case failed to hand over ex-culpatory evidence. Having new evidence come to light isn't substantively any different. The police could do a less than thorough job of checking up on the facts because they don't contribute to a guilty verdict and a lot of the people on death row are there because they lacked competent counsel and the funding to look into these things at the time.

The only way in which this ruling would have made any sense is if everybody had the right to a competent, effective and properly funded counsel before and during the trial. We don't have that. You're just entitled to an attorney being physically present. Not necessarily mentally present or even doing their job.
Post edited February 14, 2016 by hedwards
avatar
hedwards: That's ridiculous, people regularly get let out of prison because the prosecutors in the case failed to hand over ex-culpatory evidence. Having new evidence come to light isn't substantively any different.
Well, it really is. It's the difference between doing something that you know is wrong, and something that happened to be wrong but you thought was right. It's procedurally very important, and lawyers love their procedural details. That's why you can get sent to jail for, say, rigging a case; but not for sentencing someone who is later found innocent. EDIT: On the other side of the bench, it's why we have different felony categories for, say, premeditated murder, and negligent manslaughter

I don't have a problem with your stance, but that detail is glaring.
Post edited February 14, 2016 by OneFiercePuppy
avatar
hedwards: That's ridiculous, people regularly get let out of prison because the prosecutors in the case failed to hand over ex-culpatory evidence. Having new evidence come to light isn't substantively any different.
avatar
OneFiercePuppy: Well, it really is. It's the difference between doing something that you know is wrong, and something that happened to be wrong but you thought was right. It's procedurally very important, and lawyers love their procedural details. That's why you can get sent to jail for, say, rigging a case; but not for sentencing someone who is later found innocent. EDIT: On the other side of the bench, it's why we have different felony categories for, say, premeditated murder, and negligent manslaughter

I don't have a problem with your stance, but that detail is glaring.
So, it's OK to allow people with a massive conflict of interest and delusions to murder and kidnap people that are innocent because they couldn't be bothered to do their jobs properly?

Bottom line here is that there's a long history in the US of prosecutors fighting to keep people in prison that are known to be innocent and the system is set up such that they mostly get away with it. It's expedient for them to not find evidence at the time of the trial and to not look into it too thoroughly as that would make it harder for them to secure a conviction.

The police likewise have little incentive to investigate possible alibis or look for evidence that would lead to an acquittal even if they sent somebody to prison for something they didn't do. Hence why things like bite mark analysis and finger printing are used in criminal cases. No scientific backing, but they happen to give the prosecution more ammo.

What's more, they'll use threats of harsh penalties to secure plea bargains knowing full well that they might not have been able to secure a conviction in court.

So no, this isn't a case of mistakes being made. This is a case of the people on the law enforcement side deliberately overstepping the boundaries as much as possible to secure a conviction without any consideration being paid to whether or not justice is being served. And jurists like Scalia and Thomas just reinforce that behavior by failing to consider the constitutions protections as intended.
avatar
hedwards: <snip>
I can play the tilting at windmills game too, if that's how you prefer to argue.

So, it's fine to throw out legal precedent and indeed the entire framework of our legal system just because sometimes it gets things wrong, and sometimes some of it can be gamed? We should just do away with all criminal courts, since we know eyewitnesses can't be trusted, people can be framed, and proof can be fabricated. Indeed, if there's ever any evidence that doesn't utterly support something, we can't make a criminal complaint, because we've abandoned the concept of reasonable doubt in favor of utterly unreasonable nitpicking. Jurists like Scalia and Thomas are the only thing keeping our legal system from plummeting into unsalvageable disarray.

You fucked up one statement, hedwards. Own that shit. You're not an idiot; don't choose to be a baby.