The problem is that these 'fictional' (as you keep emphasising) groups are not created in a vacuum, and very often, they wear their inspirations on their sleeves, such as the case of the vistani (which was the impetus behind the creation of this thread, discussion of orcs and such being secondary). If these 'fictional' representations are based of problematic stereotypes of real world people, then there is a good basis of calling them out, and a good basis for WotC to reexamine them in the game.

Again there is a big difference between a case where a race or culture is nearly inspired 1:1 from a real and still existing ones, like it is apparently the case for the Vistani, and other cases where peoples use the "not in vacuum" excuse, among others, to desperately tries find parallels and far fetched reasoning to link fictional races / species (or even stories) to reality just to be offended by them like it was the case with the Orcs.

I'll just go ahead and say something I've been thinking for a while. I'll probably regret re-entering this discussion, but I'm just stupid that way...

What is so bad about using such stereotypes in a game? Why is it so horrible? We use violence in games constantly. Sometimes realistic, sometimes cartoonish, but it's constantly there, in video games and tabletop RPGs. And violence is a real world issue. It's bad to use violence in real life. And yet whenever games and gamers are attacked by the media or politicians for depicting violence, accused of "teaching" it, all gamers promptly (and rightly) agree that it's fictional violence, that they can tell fiction from reality, and that there is nothing wrong with having fun with a violent video game.

But not so with stereotypes? When it comes to a stereotypical depiction of a fictionalised ethnic group people can no longer tell the difference between the real world and fiction? Why is the stereotypical Vistani a no-no because of real world issues, but running people over with a car in GTA is ok, despite the real world? Just recently we had a game about a violent street revolution release here, it's even part of that anti-racism bundle, and that's all hunky-dory, nothing there with disturbing connotations to the real world, right?

There is no logic to any of that. Either we can depict controversial and even outright bad things in games and have fun with them without it corrupting the audience, or we can't. You can't have it both ways because one thing you like having fun with and the other you like complaining about on twitter.

If someone created a game world with a group of people which very clearly resemble Poles in all but name, and their most prominent trait is that they are incredibly skilled at stealing esp. vehicles (and the game world is not a tongue-in-cheek parody or satire, but totally serious about it) would you be fine with it?

I - as a German - would feel uncomfortable, because living near the border that sounds horribly like some of the people here who badmouth Poles and Poland for exactly that reason. And I would completely understand if you wanted this changed.

Yes.

I may not want to play it, I may think it's stupid, but it's just a game. I don't get offended by stuff like that. I detest this whole "I am offended by X in someone's work and demand it changed to make me comfortable!" mindset.

And hell - if it were a really good game I might want to play it. Why not?

Personally I would say "how close" said resemblance really is and how degrading it might be, for example there is a lot sci-fi (for example in Anime) where the "bad guys", member of a totalitarian empire / species / whatever, are very German'ish, with them having German sounding name or/and German aesthetic (and of course the usual German Stereotype of being very martial and orderly).

But is it enough to be considered an harmful stereotype or insulting towards German peoples ? personally I don't think so.

Are Germans currently being badmouthed for being totalitarian and martial in general? If so, I'm not aware of it. Yeah it's an established trope, especially the Mengele-type evil mad scientist must of course be German...

I made the Poles example because that is what is actually happening in the real world, and I would totally understand why some Poles would not be fine with it. Especially those near the border who are eyed with suspicion by the thick Germans either when they bring money to German stores or when the Germans go to Poland for cheap petrol and cigarettes.

I would understand why a fantasy world where all black people were primitive savages and only white people had something like civilization would cause an outrage, because it's dangerously close to what actual "white pride" idiots think even today.

I'm pretty much annoyed by the "eternally offended" and all the outrages and twitter mobs about - really - tiny sensitivities.
But the other extreme - anything goes and shut your mouth because of art and free speech - can't be the solution either. If some real life group is perpetually painted in a bad light, with a "fantasy name" as a fig leaf, I don't think that's really fine.

moved to next post

And please show us how many Romani were affected by this or complained? Or was it a bunch of bored perpetually outraged people making social media posts about such like it often is?

In essence SHOW ME THE ACTUAL HARM being done and those affected by it.

(And no, saying it might affect someone somewhere or pointing to social media posts of people not in said groups just complaining lightly about it doesn't count)

You seem to be mixing up market research on broad swaths of the consumer market used to make changes that many will like, to changes made to appeal to a few people on a buzzword topic in current year(oft due to some outrage, real or imagined, by the people being appealed to) or those made to play off of people's actual highly valued issues.

There is a big difference between making a new flavor people will like and adding in or changing things about something to play on people's emotions and support of certain topics and beliefs.

It's still intolerance of other people with opposing beliefs and ideals. Even if you dislike them or find them distasteful.

To be intolerant of people one finds it 'ok' to do so to just makes them intolerant themselves and big hypocrites.

(Such others are essentially saying "it's ok to be mean to those people. I dislike their ideas and find them loathsome so it's ok to do so to them"

How is that any different than what some others do to blacks/lgbt/etc?)

FICTIONAL races even if stereotyped or homogenized in a game or piece of media isn't depicting minorities in a degrading way.

(And I didn't mean that. You know it, and I know it. So stop inserting meaning into my words that isn't there and discuss without such sneaky tricks if you can muster up that much decency)

Again, show me how many such things in this game hurt or majorly impacted beyond posts on twitter and the like. I will be waiting to see what you find.

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I like a good amount of your posts here on this subject. You are very well spoken.

But you should likely see by now that user has likely no intent to discuss such issues while being openminded. Their mind seems to be made up, and they seem to want more to promote how 'good' this change is and how 'bad' it is for others to be critical of it. rather than to maybe have their thought challenged and have a proper discourse on the subject.

In effect he is likely just here to push his ideology on the current topic while feigning interest in other points of view on the subject.

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You seem to act like this is some major blow to issues like racism and such in our world.

Changing this won't end or even majorly curtail the issues people dislike about our own world, and all this change will likely do is make a few social media posters feel good online for a bit before they go and find something else to be 'upset' or upset about.

If people made a game about my nation of origin or myself or my family I would just ignore it and not play it.

I might make some jokes about it in response but I wouldn't let it get to me. That's one of the world's problems. People that let stuff get to them instead of just ignoring such and moving on like in ages past.

(By ignoring things I mean stuff that doesn't actually harm anyone physically or financially or the like)

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Probably because today's generation grew up while hardly being told no by their parents and they have access to social media where they can get validation and good feelings from being outraged over such things or 'fighting against bad things'(this usually only goes so far as people getting such changes made in media and the like).

Good on you for that, but that's not the point. It's not like how GameRager wants to strawman it, with "Oh no, there was a stereotype, and now X person has been personally harmed! The world doesn't work like that.

You ask why certain stereotypes are harmful, they're harmful because they get perpetuated and normalise certain beliefs about people. There's a reason why a white person walking around at night would have a higher fear reaction to seeing a black man than an asian man, for example, and it has nothing to do with biology- that is learnt behaviour.

A single instance of a game featuring a tribe of swarthy "Abyssidians" who rape and murder white people ruthlessly wouldn't be harmful in a vacuum. After all, it's just a story. But those stories don't come about in a vacuum, they're based in the real world and reflect and feed off assumptions people have in the real world.

So when a game uses explicit visual imagery and lore of a certain people as a shorthand for certain characteristics (in the same way that if I hear the word "Dwarf", I automatically understand "battle axe" "beards" "gold" "underground caverns") if those stereotypes are based on a real world people, it gets fed back into them.

So while a single instance of "Vistani" people in a game is not going to "CAUSE RACISM AND REMOVE 20 MORALITY POINTS FROM THE PARTY!", it perpetuates harmful stereotypes about them and helps those stereotypes continue.

For example:
I've noticed very often in American media (movies, comedy shows, tv shows, etc), the word "German" is automatically associated and linked with "Nazi", so much so that very often I've seen when an American is introduced to something German (a person online, some piece of cultural heritage, etc.), their almost visceral and automatic reaction is "lol, nazi!".

If people let such influence their thinking to such degrees and cannot think for themselves in such instances, then it would probably help them the world and humanity more if they stopped letting such things influence their thinking so much (instead of companies and people changing things because some might not be able to separate fiction from reality and stereotypes and generalizations from how people really are.).

Also in a way you are marginalizing and insulting such people by essentially saying or inferring that "Such people cannot figure out how this group or that person is in reality, as their minds are so weak that they believe near everything they might see in media, so such things must be changed because they cannot form an accurate picture of said groups or peoples on their own without our help"

edit: This general trend in society seems to come from what I term the 'savior complex'. As in people seeming to feel the need to do things to protect some groups, which in a way is belittling of said groups as it somewhat infers said groups (in games or otherwise) cannot do so for themselves and need such help.

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And could you also stop with calling me someone else? It is uncalled for, unrelated to this topic, and a low thing to do(even if the information is false as in this case).

No, that is not what I ask. I know why sterotypes are, broadly speaking, bad. I ask why is it that you take umbridge with that, and want that to be removed from games, but not something else that is unquestionably wrong in real world, like murder and violence. Why is it ok for half a playbook to be dedicated to rules for killing people and to publish books full of additional tools to shoot, stab and dismember people with, but a fictionalised sterotype showing up in that book is a big no-no. Why do we trust the audience to not go run over pedestrians after playing GTA, but we do not trust them to tell apart reall people from "Abyssidians".

Because that's not the moral panic the generation of today is pushing against and promoting awareness of.

In the somewhat recent past it was the satanic panic. Now it is such stereotypes that 'need' to be removed for the bettering of all.

It is mostly moral busybodies with more time than sense who need to feel good about themselves and those who blindly believe what they are told is wrong with the world parroting the narrative.