Let the default happen. Let the bill come due. Let the lesson be learned. Lesson being, don't borrow money from people whose 3 core principles are LIE-CHEAT-STEAL.

They say you can't cheat an honest man. But can you cheat an honest nation? Apparently, the answer is yes.

I keep hearing that claim, but I haven't heard which were the exact reforms which "destroyed" the Greek economy, especially compared to the theoretical scenario that no bailout program would have been arranged at all, but Greece would have been left to try to cope with it alone. Would the Greeks be better off right now in that alternative scenario?

Be specific, don't just talk generally about "austerity" or "reflation", but what were the exact demands by the "troika" that destroyed the Greek economy, and what should have been done instead with that loan money that has been pushed to Greece, something that would have created much-needed sustainable economic growth.

From my point of view, the problem with Greece is that it doesn't produce enough to allow the living standards that Greeks have been accustomed to for a few decades with cheap loan money. According to Wikipedia, Greece's main exports are olive oil, olives and wine, and also tourism is an important money-bringer for them. Are those enough to let Greeks lead the way of life they were accustomed during the 2000s?

What in your eyes Greeks should have done when the crisis started, and what should they do now? Should they have declined the help by IMF, EU commission and ECB, and leave the eurozone (and probably EU at the same time) willingly already then? Or now? Why didn't they? Why does Syriza and the majority of Greeks still want to stay in the eurozone, if it is the thing killing them and causing inflexibility (which it is, as the euro value follows closer Germany than Greece)?

Note: Greece is not alone with that problem. We know Italy, Spain, France and probably many other countries are having similar issues, Finland too, just in a much milder manner at this point. We discuss here already that considering the fall of the paper industry and Nokia, the dwindling exports to Russia (for the most part due to the EU/USA sanctions, which in turn have made also Russia make some sanctions), and the aging population (=more pensioners), what standards of living can we really afford in a long run, in a sustainable ways (so that we don't leave a Greek-size debt to our grandchildren).

The thing is, we are having that discussion already before we are in IMF's leash and have matters mostly in our own hands, and while we still have a pretty good rating among the creditors. We could certainly keep increasing our debt too without much thought, but I guess the Greek situation is a good reminder to us, why we shouldn't necessarily do so.

Reflation makes more sense when the economic problems are seasonal, and not structural.

Let me rephrase - it was a brilliant political move.
As a leader yes, it was a coward: he had the consensus to do what it felt right, and just saying "well, I think it's no, but you folks should decide instead of me" is too little too late. But is much more than what our Renzi did, which is accepting the orders of a non-elected, foreign group of people who doesn't even speak our language (I know, Mario Draghi. He's not a human being, he's a cyborg).

When this happens, it means that Italy is just a colony.

i hope that this referendum helps the greek people to get out of this hole eu/bank credit slavery and wish them good luck!

"War between two countries is not limited to skirmishes between soldiers. The country which allows the currency of the other country to be used within its own markets, is the country that lost (or will lose) the war. If the "king" of that other country simply decides to reduce/halt the distribution of their currency, the markets will collapse and drown"

Funny. I had quoted that before and had wanted to discuss it in the past, but people bashed and downvoted severely, hastily and angrily. Too bad though, even if i am no economist myself or versed in politics anyway and the sources this came out from far from being "scientific", this simple, oversimplified even perhaps, paragraph, happened to prove being the truth. I got my answer not from people this time, but from events...

Yes, we do :)

I call it as I see it. In this thread, I saw you drawing the racist card on another member without even remotely due cause and that isn't acceptable behavior - not even on an anonymous internet board.

What you're doing is taking advantage of the non-confrontational stance of the majority of people here who won't say anything even if they do see what you're doing. If you were my friend, I'd grill you twice as much for such behavior because honesty among friends is even more important than among strangers.

That's the one consistent in the global economy. Once you've stripped down the political posturing, propaganda and all the other bullshit, the simple fact is the vulnerable will suffer while corporations will find a way of profiteering from their misery.

That's my lot. I'll just get too depressed if I contributed further.

I went by the Greek parties in government since 1974 section of Wikipedia, so I guess Papadimos may be included in them. So I guess I should have said that we had 7 different governments in the last 10 years, not 7 elections. Thank you for correcting me :)

I'd really like to hear from the Greek members about their experience. I'm reading some really scary articles about ATMs not working, stock exchange and banks being closed, shelves in supermarkets being emptied at alarming rates, petrol shortage etc. Are these things true or is this all just click bait by news agencies?

I'm not that well informed about minute details of the crisis, but it does seem to me like another bailout will just prolong the agony of the country. New loans won't improve anything. Buying social peace by accruing additional debt is not the way to rectify the situation. Better to make the clean cut and rebuild the economy, even if it means going out of the eurozone.

Before someone accuses me of being unsympathetic to the Greek plight, I'll just say that I'm advocating the same thing for my country. IMF not approving new loans is the best thing happening right now for us. Using loaned money for social spending and government salaries will bring nothing good, and could land us in the same or even worse situation than Greece. Fundamental reforms are needed in both cases. Austerity measures on their own are the same as throwing more money at the problem. Countries like Spain and Portugal are good examples of reforms done right. rest of us here in southern Europe should follow suit.

While I agree that rather Grexit than more bailout money (because it will indeed probably just prolong the agony, especially for the other EU countries), still:

When you say "clean cut", remember that merely exiting the eurozone or even EU will not automatically nullify Greece's debts. They will still be there, and if Greece has its own currency of sorts after euro (which will strongly devaluate), it will probably be even harder to cope with the debts, at least in the short term. There will be many question marks though how exactly it would be handled.

After that it becomes a question of how hard Greek opposes having to pay its debts (partly or at all), and how hard the creditors (now being mainly other EU countries, IMF etc. which took over the loans from German/French/UK banks) will try to still get them. I guess they can't really force Greece to pay anything or most of it if Greece decides to be very hard-headed, but I presume that will have consequences, like no other creditors wanting to give more money to Greece at least cheaply, at least as long as they remember Greece's current unwillingness to pay its debts.

I know Greeks are hoping for most of the debt to be written off, Syriza already demanded a promise of that from the other EU countries. Why wouldn't they, it is all free money. I would also hope I wouldn't have to pay rest of my rather sizable mortgage, unfortunately I can't just decide not to pay it, without losing my home.

Hmm, how about those vulture funds who buy other countries' debts cheaply? I wonder how much they would be willing to pay for Greece's debts?

Just to get rid of those racist lies about the Greek people, this is a speech of the vice president of the ECB.
Basically, it's the opposite of the narratives of lazy and corrupt Greeks who lived "beyond their means".

Enjoy.

And you have very specific political reasons to see it like that, yes. Done now ?

Thanks for the link, it's answering a lot of my own questions.

Not really. The only "bad" place in Europe nowadays is the eastern and a bit of the southern Europe, where corruption is very high. Central and North / West Europe are doing just fine, and NOBODY here talks about war. Hell, it is billion times harder compared to the US to get your hands on a gun, let alone start a war or something.
The Greeks are NOT A FUCKING RACE.

Yeah except that, technicalities apart, if I say "the swedes are assholes", i'm a huge racist.

And if you want to go that way, it happens, as a matter of fact, that nothing at all is a "race", amongst humans. So yay, nobody is racist, racists have won.

AAaaand, there we are.