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htown1980: snip
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Brasas: As far I can understand the Indiana law is trying to protect individuals with religious beliefs from being coerced into performing actions that go against their beliefs. The examples of discussion, of which the whole pizzeria brouhaha exemplifies, had to do with catering to gay weddings, which is a cause celebre of the same groups that oppose GG, Sad Puppies etc... let's call them SJWs? I might be assuming, but let's take you as an illustrative example. We all know you consider GG to be a reactionary political group right? You seem to have similar opinion of the Sad Puppies campaign underlying motivations, yes? So here's a question, do you consider it legitimate that anyone should be able to refuse catering a gay wedding? Do you support coercing them into "tolerant" actions?
(Snipped the rest. Just wanted to respond to this one wee bit.)

There is a problem with your argument.
For much the same reason as someone refusing to serve black people despite freely serving everyone else is violating civil rights.
Like, your argument of "these people are being FORCED to accept MONEY from the PUBLIC for their SERVICES" is... weak, and kind of risky.
They chose to open a business serving the public; refusing to serve a customer solely because they want a cake addressed to 'Alice & Jane' instead of 'Alice & Bob' is not only silly but rather blatant discrimination.
(A comparatively sensible person might lie, if they are in a business where they are free to make up excuses not to take on a particular client.)

Another issue with the whole 'free market' approach (in the sense that they should be free to refuse service to anyone & also accept the consequences) is that if there is only the one bakery in that area.
I mean, where else are the cute gay couples going to be getting a lovely cake from?
(Not that lovely cakes are an inherent right or anything. But it just seems so bloody daft to not do so.)

There are issues with the idea that one is always obligated to serve everyone, but... *shrugs*.
I don't see how decorating a cake or serving pizza violates some moral principle.
"THE LORD THY GOD SAYS THOU SHALT NOT PROVIDE PIZZA TO THE GAYS" doesn't ring a bell.
Thou there was a baker refused to bake a cake for the KKK because it was racist as fuck.
Funnily enough, she got told she broke the law too. Religious discrimination somehow.

The USA is pretty strange from a European perspective tbh.
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SusurrusParadox: snip
And all that makes it right to Tweet and ask for other people to help burn the pizzeria down? Is that your idea of social justice?
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SusurrusParadox: "The group advocates “equity feminism,” a term first used by IWF author Christina Hoff Sommers to distinguish “traditional, classically liberal, humanistic feminism” from “gender feminism”, which she claims opposes gender roles as well as patriarchy"
Ah yes, because supporting archaic gender roles is so very feminist and definitely fair/equal.
She's a Conservative shill making money for herself and her puppet masters. Hardly a paragon of truth.
(Anders Breivik was a fan of her. Bit odd that. He didn't seem like a fan of fairness and equality.)
So feminist even feminists don't understand
Attachments:
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Post edited April 12, 2015 by Shadowstalker16
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SusurrusParadox: snip
Well mate... I'm firmly in the two wrongs don't make a right camp. Sometimes two wrongs is the best way out, but it's not good. Kind of like war might be necessary but that does not make it good.

You yourself see there is something kind of wrong with forcing people into service. To me that's obvious, and I'm glad you understand me, even if you disagree. I don't see how that wrong actually resolves any of the fundamental issues. There's much better alternatives, namely finding someone to serve you voluntarily. If you can't, that might be a message in itself.

A couple of questions:
What is risky about free enterprise? Do you really believe gays won't get married or won't have cake in practice... :)
And more importantly: Do you actually think enforcing tolerance will reduce hatred or change opinions?
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SusurrusParadox: Saves the trouble of considering your arguments even remotely legitimate, and neatly declares your existence to be of no merit whatsoever to humanity or the universe as a whole.
You know what saves me the trouble of considering your arguments even remotely legitimate, and neatly declares your existence to be of no merit whatsoever to humanity or the universe as a whole?
Rep: 2
And I don't even have to finish that wall of text of yours.

Ta! ;P
Post edited April 12, 2015 by fronzelneekburm
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SusurrusParadox: As for that other person you namedropped, I haven't heard of them but spending some time reading reveals they actively defend transphobic rhetoric.
Not much of a feminist if they're throwing other women under the proverbial bus.
Seems more like an asshole t' me.
So you are going to say something vague about Liana K in order to discredit her and then add in some name calling. Turn the Obsidian Games gravestone into transphobic rhetoric. Turn defending free speech for content creators into actively defending transphobic rhetoric. Pathetic argument. Why didn't you just go all in on it? She didn't see anything wrong with the Lionhead Studios Cleavage Day tweet, so she must be a sexist or misogynist who objectifies women. She didn't see the point of the outrage over the Batgirl Joker cover, she must support violence against women and rape culture. She criticized Anita's ideas she must be an anti-feminist or MRA.

On a side note did you think shaming or name calling would be an effective tactic in this thread? Every once in a while someone comes in calls the people involved in the thread sexist, racist, transphobic etc.... It doesn't stop the discussion. So either we are sexist, racist, transphopic etc... and don't care that people know this or we are immune to false shaming and name calling. As for myself, after what I endured in high school, someone calling me names on the internet doesn't bother me at all.
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SusurrusParadox: She's a shill making money for herself and her puppet masters. Hardly a paragon of truth.

Then again you're probably too far gone to acknowledge the blatant bias and her involvement in an anti-science 'think tank'.
you misspelled anita sarkeesian

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SusurrusParadox: (Anders Breivik was a fan of her. Bit odd that. He didn't seem like a fan of fairness and equality.)
Ah yes the guilt by association your side loves soo much

WELL I HOPE YOU HATE TROUT because you know who loved trout? adolf hitler
so according to your logic, anyone who likes trout must be a nazi.

I support GG, yet i'm definitely no conservative (if i lived in the us, i don't think i'd ever vote republican but thats beside the point)

you are clearly in a position where you, like many SJW, think that your life views are the only possible correct ones.
"could i be mistaken? NO IT IS THE WORLD THAT IS WRONG"

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SusurrusParadox: "I don't see how decorating a cake or serving pizza violates some moral principle. "
they said they wouldn't refuse a gay customer. They did not want to cater a ceremony their beliefs were against. If a neo-nazi club asked you to cater their book burning event and you refused and then you'd receive tons of death threats and open calls of violence against you, how'd that make you feel?

your side claims tolerance, yet they are among the most intolerant groups i have ever seen. And of course, if they send death threats, openly support doxxing, send people knives in the mail, try to get them fired or blacklisted from companies, that's all perfect if it's in the name of social justice.
Post edited April 12, 2015 by dragonbeast
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SusurrusParadox: Scotchmonkey seemingly too.
So I'm trans phobic when I list the obvious hypocrisies and vile hate of said person that a reasonable party would no doubt conclude that they suffer from self hate?

Nice try. I support trans people and LGBTQ causes. Unlike you I don't try undermine people because of their color / sex or orientation politically which you know none about.

You riled some up with your audacious remarks that smell of cronyism and preferential treatment. Apparently calling you on this is is somehow phobic. Yes it is because I'm allergic to bullshit.
He's / she / it / all / none obviously a smurf account of someone too scared to use the original alt for fear of losing rep. Why take him / her / it / all / none seriously?
Post edited April 12, 2015 by Shadowstalker16
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Shadowstalker16: He's obviously a smurf account of someone too scared to use the original alt for fear of losing rep. Why take him seriously?
Stop being so sexist and presume it is male, it's obviously a being from some parallel dimension trapped in a carbon-based body that doesn't fit into its agenda. ;)
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Shadowstalker16: He's obviously a smurf account of someone too scared to use the original alt for fear of losing rep. Why take him seriously?
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Klumpen0815: Stop being so sexist and presume it is male, it's obviously a being from some parallel dimension trapped in a carbon-based body that doesn't fit into its agenda. ;)
Yes. Need ta edit. I hope he / she / it / all / none wasn't offended.

EDIT: proof! Loosing rep because of being downrepped from multiple accounts! You heard it first here kids!
Post edited April 12, 2015 by Shadowstalker16
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SusurrusParadox: They also included whatshisface (Wright; I forget his first name), a homophobic militant Christian.
At that point, it's not so much "disagree with" as "this scumbag refuses to recognise the humanity of some people and afford them the same rights/privileges he enjoys based purely on their sexuality and/or romantic inclinations".
No-one like that (whether their bigotry is exerted towards sexuality, gender, ethnicity, etc.) is someone that I would feel remotely comfortable supporting, nor could I personally partake of their work and enjoy it.
Just curious, and please note I am not supporting or defending this person as I really don't know who he is, but based on your statement I am curious if you believe awards should not be based on a person's work at all then? It is the person who should be judged instead, and if their views are not correctly aligned, they should be banished?

That seems to be the road you are going down. Why have science fiction awards at all then?

I am sad you didn't respond to my older post though. It seems what I said is certainly true, female gamers who do not toe the same line as the chronically offended continue to be disregarded as nobodies. Ah well!
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Shadowstalker16: He's obviously a smurf account of someone too scared to use the original alt for fear of losing rep. Why take him seriously?
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Klumpen0815: Stop being so sexist and presume it is male, it's obviously a being from some parallel dimension trapped in a carbon-based body that doesn't fit into its agenda. ;)
So a Dalek then?
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Klumpen0815: Stop being so sexist and presume it is male, it's obviously a being from some parallel dimension trapped in a carbon-based body that doesn't fit into its agenda. ;)
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ScotchMonkey: So a Dalek then?
Hmm, removed ability to feel pity, compassion, or remorse; viewing themselves as the supreme race in the universe and are at a conquest of universal domination and extermination...
Fits the bill quite well. We should raise more awareness for transspecies people anyway, I'm getting my fins next week. ;)
Post edited April 12, 2015 by Klumpen0815
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ScotchMonkey: So a Dalek then?
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Klumpen0815: Hmm, removed ability to feel pity, compassion, or remorse; viewing themselves as the supreme race in the universe and are at a conquest of universal domination and extermination...
Fits the bill quite well. We should raise more awareness for transspecies people anyway, I'm getting my fins next week. ;)
so who's the cybermen?