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Crosmando: I tend to sympathize with the comment in OP because Night Dive have been a bunch of cunts about GOG and DRM-Free. What put them on the map was GOG/ND's release of System Shock 2. After that ND just basically went "Well, thanks for the fish, cya fags" and then went on to release a tonne of old PC games on Steam, without releasing them on GOG.

My personal feeling is that they're a bunch of dickheads and Steam-worshipers, I can't back this up but it's my feeling.
Well they are planning on releasing on GOG and you go where the money is.
GOG should've gotten them into a time limited exclusive contract really.
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JMich: No. I'm sorry but SSP is distributing copyrighted material. As I said in the other thread, they do suggest making a package that install the mods on a clean SS installation, which they do encourage. That is not distributing copyrighted material, and it does give the SSP functionality to those that already have the game.
Yeah, they're certainly within their rights to demand it. Assuming they have actually bought the rights wholesale at least. That doesn't necessary mean that they aren't also jerks/ dicks though. Kolya has been pretty annoyed with ND since they bundled SS2Tool into their original SS2 release without asking- also a copyright infringement, ironically, as they cannot claim copyright over new content, and something that brought in a number of completely unnecessary problems too.

That and the claims that tech ninjas had been hard at work on the release and the implication that New Dark was their work rather set the tone of ND being flash harry snake oil sellers squatting on the hard work of LGS/IG and those who kept the game working for 14 years while taking money and credit. That's never going to get a good reaction from the people who have actually done the work to keep it going, for free, and then had someone swoop in to commercialise it.

As for the "please feel free to add value to our wholly owned commercial product by making a SS1Tool, dear fellow" that is utter, unmitigated cheek and I'd tell them to go fuck themselves if they suggested it to me- or demand they pay me for it at very least.
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Smannesman: Well they are planning on releasing on GOG and you go where the money is.
Nah, you go everywhere the money is, not just where most of it is. It's smart business to release your game on every distributor you can, or at the very least the top 5. Business says you follow up every possible way to make money, no matter how small.

NDS's attitude to me speaks of arrogance and an emotional, elitist "Steam is best" fanboyism, not cold business logic. Many devs who make excuses for being on Steam but not GOG are not doing so on business logic, but because they are lazy and just don't want the bother of maintaining a GOG version, even when it would be profitable for them to do so.

Most indie devs explain away not being on GOG saying "Our main audience is on Steam" (to which GOG can show them financial data showing that it would be profitable for them) or "GOG doesn't have the online functions we need" (which is invalid now that Galaxy is out) when the reality is that most indie devs have zero business knowledge or experience. It's probably easier for GOG to deal with big publishers and lawyers (hey, they got Star Trek, LucasArts and D&D) who operate on business logic, than indie devs who are dumb and emotional.
Post edited September 06, 2015 by Crosmando
Night Dive has been working on rights for some big games.. Turok and No One Lives Forever to name a few... it takes time to get all the talking heads in agreement and line up the paperwork.

SS is really important to them, I could see this happening.

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Crosmando: NDS's attitude to me speaks of arrogance and an emotional, elitist "Steam is best" fanboyism, not cold business logic. Many devs who make excuses for being on Steam but not GOG are not doing so on business logic, but because they are lazy and just don't want the bother of maintaining a GOG version, even when it would be profitable for them to do so.
as for elitist attitude, it has nothing to do with it... they can only release where they are told they can. Yes you can get this game working on modern systems but only release on steam... well, you gotta pay the bills so they do. All your issues and worries were covered in-depth on blog posts and social media replys.

They talk, everyday, to the fans. Take a moment and listen to what they have to say.
Post edited September 06, 2015 by Starkrun
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Crosmando: Most indie devs explain away not being on GOG saying "Our main audience is on Steam" (to which GOG can show them financial data showing that it would be profitable for them) or "GOG doesn't have the online functions we need" (which is invalid now that Galaxy is out) when the reality is that most indie devs have zero business knowledge or experience. It's probably easier for GOG to deal with big publishers and lawyers (hey, they got Star Trek, LucasArts and D&D) who operate on business logic, than indie devs who are dumb and emotional.
Well there are also several developers that have outdated versions on GOG, in that case I personally prefer that they don't release on GOG at all.
Galaxy being a POS notwithstanding, I don't see that making having multiple versions of your game any easier.
Have any of the 'big' publishers actually released anything here that actually used Steam to its advantage?
Most of the games, if not all of them, probably were easy to release here since they didn't have to change all that much in the code if anything at all.
The best reason to sell on GOG is probably the deluded, obsessive and insane customer/fanbase they have which will buy any old game for full price.
Which is probably why a lot of the big names release on GOG after they've already sold as many copies on Steam as they can.
I'm not a fan of Night Dive in any way, but I also haven't given them any attention so I don't know what they're like, perhaps they're scumbags of the highest order.. I don't know.
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toxicTom: Well there are things like "customary right"... And they've been doing it for years, and out in the open too.
I was under the impression that they were doing it in the open because the copyright holder wasn't complaining. Should the copyright holder object, they would take it down.
Now the (new) copyright holder objected. Would they follow the holder's wishes, or would they defy them instead, losing any credibility they may have had?
Time for me to get massively derepped. :P

I thought SS 2 was a colossal disappointment. Is #1 any better?
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Phasmid: As for the "please feel free to add value to our wholly owned commercial product by making a SS1Tool, dear fellow" that is utter, unmitigated cheek and I'd tell them to go fuck themselves if they suggested it to me- or demand they pay me for it at very least.
Mods are a very weird area to try and commercialize. You are effectively modifying someone else's property, by adding your own. First question is if you are allowed to do such modification in the first place (if I paint over the Mona Lisa, is the new painting one of mine, or was I modifying property I didn't have the right to do so?). From what I recall from the ttlg thread, ND doesn't care about SSP, as long as no materials of them is distributed with it. Which means that they do allow mods to their game, and they do welcome them as well.
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tinyE: Time for me to get massively derepped. :P

I thought SS 2 was a colossal disappointment. Is #1 any better?
Why it was a disappointment ?

Can't say if it's better, but it's very diffrent for better and for worse.
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tinyE: Time for me to get massively derepped. :P

I thought SS 2 was a colossal disappointment. Is #1 any better?
Imo yes, if you liked Ultima Underworld you'll probably like it.
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Crosmando: Has SSP been backed-up elsewhere then, like on TPB or Mega?
Currently, you can find v.09 if you google enough, but it seems to only have one seed.
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JMich: I was under the impression that they were doing it in the open because the copyright holder wasn't complaining. Should the copyright holder object, they would take it down.
Now the (new) copyright holder objected. Would they follow the holder's wishes, or would they defy them instead, losing any credibility they may have had?
I've never said they should have defied NightDive. ND just should have left them alone. The current legal rules are as they are, though I agree with rtcvb32 that they are broken and should be fixed.
I just feels wrong.

And I seriously doubt that taking down SSP will do much increase sales of a SS re-release. Angered people will refrain from buying it now, and pirates will pirate anyway, especially the SSP version which is sure to show up on the "usual suspect" sites.
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tinyE: Time for me to get massively derepped. :P

I thought SS 2 was a colossal disappointment. Is #1 any better?
I think System Shock 1 is definitely superior to its sequel. A lot of people like to bitch about the controls, but even those are fine to me.

I certainly prefer the original's interface over the one in SS2. It may look a bit complicated at first, but it's actually pretty well designed and surprisingly customizable.

The atmosphere is great, too and there's a much stronger emphasis on the cyberpunk elements, with lots of attachments and modules to use, such as an electronic rear-view mirror that constantly shows what's behind you; and of course, the hacking sequences where you enter a weird, Tron-esque cyberspace.

It also doesn't have that dumb, poorly balanced RPG-levelling system.

If you're curious, I can recommend this video about System Shock from Ancient Dos Games.
Post edited September 06, 2015 by InfraSuperman
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toxicTom: And I seriously doubt that taking down SSP will do much increase sales of a SS re-release. Angered people will refrain from buying it now, and pirates will pirate anyway, especially the SSP version which is sure to show up on the "usual suspect" sites.
Probably the best way they could have done it, was to have SSP stop work on it, but not remove what they've already released... Then get SSP to give them what they have for their work (maybe paying them for their work) and then improve/fix it where it's still lacking; That way the free version is more of a demo that might or might not work for you while the newer version would have some improvements, fixes, or be more supported in the years to come. Potentially they could push the shareware model on it, having the first quarter of the game left alone while cutting off the other 3/4ths of the game, with a note to get the full game... (It's entirely possible people quit playing within the first few hours so the first quarter of the game isn't too little content...)

Alternatively they could have SSP's version at the end of each level ask you if you'd like to buy the game before relenting and letting you continue to play unhindered.. (Slightly annoying but not enough to call foul).
Post edited September 06, 2015 by rtcvb32
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rtcvb32: Probably the best way they could have done it, was to have SSP stop work on it, but not remove what they've already released...
What? You mean allow them to freely distribute the copyrighted material, but forbid working on mods for the game? You think that is the best way? Seriously?
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toxicTom: ND just should have left them alone.
No. They shouldn't. That is like saying you are just fine with any site that provides downloads for games GOG sells.
The download link for SSP that ttlg forums had was not a mod. It was the full game with mods included. Should they have gone the way of JA2 1.13 and provided only the modded files, ND would be nuts to ask them to take it down. But they weren't providing just the modded files, they were providing the full game.

If you still think ND should have left them alone, then that does mean that there is no reason for anyone to try and resurrect old games, since there are people who do provide you with a link to the full game.
Post edited September 06, 2015 by JMich