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General discussion Paying for mods(39 posts)(39 posts)
(39 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 26, 2015
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gunsynd: 3. Modding is something you know you won’t get paid for.

I disagree with this as it is happening now,if this kicks in there will be (no such thing as a free mod).

I have done a lot of personal modding,and I can tell you it's a long process to get something
done.Modding Skyrim is extremely time consuming,so this had to happen.
Don't get me wrong,I detest what Steam has done and they are dead in the water as far as I'm
concerned...
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Magmarock: Yes that is all true but you know going into this that modding would not pay you. As for Skyrim is there something wrong it it? I mean it seems that the only reason people get Skyrim is to mod it rather then play it. Mods are awesome but I've never heard a game being so extensively modded or something. Makes me think the default game must be broken or something.
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DeathDiciple: He seems a bit too scared not to get someone butthurt - or there's more at work. He supports the core of the system, yet complains about people downvoting him as 'he is really against the system'. Just funny.
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Magmarock: Yeah he is defiantly being wishy washy here.
Yes well Skyrim was very rough when it was released,continually crashing and what fixed
it was modders.And your right about people actually having more fun modding than playing
the game.Of course we knew modding was not going to pay us,(oops) that's been changed
now by greedy Valve:-)
Posted April 26, 2015
Maybe it's a good idea to pay for mods. That way we won't get so many Korean or Indian spam threads selling shoes or handbags.
Posted April 26, 2015
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Grilledfish: Maybe it's a good idea to pay for mods. That way we won't get so many Korean or Indian spam threads selling shoes or handbags.
We will get korean or indian spam threads in addition to "A different service is selling mods!" threads. It'll be glorious.
Posted April 26, 2015
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MaximumBunny: The biggest problem with all of this is that most people don't actually understand what the real problems with this are. :P

Not wanting to pay, not valuing someone's time and effort, not valuing the field they're in, clinging to the past - these are all popular opinions but invalid arguments ya know.

"I don't want to pay for mods. Therefore, charging for mods should be illegal or strongly frowny faced upon." - The basic argument. The rest that follow like the "75% OMG!" gripe are pseudo-defenses pretending to be protecting the modders basic rights (or something) by the same people who are trying to prevent them from being able to sell them in the first place. You vote it 1 star, harass them, tell them they're scum for not giving it out for free, then say they should be making more for their work if they make anything at all. THAT type of crap is a problem.
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Magmarock: Think of public restrooms or being charged to simply walk into a shopping center.
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MaximumBunny: You're doing that logical fallacy thingy where you're drawing strawmen conclusions. For example: "We legalize driving cars and then what's next? Tanks for everyone? The world will be destroyed. It's absurdity!" You should instead compare it with like-things that take time and effort/skill. A bridge toll or a subscription service is more in line with being charged for walking into stores than modding, doing an art commission, or being a mime.

If you disagree with paid mods then that's fine. People hated paying for TV too when analog was being shut down. I just suggest that you really step back and think about the whole situation. It's not all bad and suggesting that it is is juvenile. But it's also far from perfect.
I don't see how this is a straw man. I was saying that forcing people to pay for something that's normally free is always going to get a bad reaction.

The key word is forcing. If you want to be paid for modding then all you need to do is ask. If your mod is good I'm sure people will be happy to dish out the cash. Also I'm not sure about the USA but TV is still free over here.
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Magmarock: Yes that is all true but you know going into this that modding would not pay you. As for Skyrim is there something wrong it it? I mean it seems that the only reason people get Skyrim is to mod it rather then play it. Mods are awesome but I've never heard a game being so extensively modded or something. Makes me think the default game must be broken or something.

Yeah he is defiantly being wishy washy here.
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gunsynd: Yes well Skyrim was very rough when it was released,continually crashing and what fixed
it was modders.And your right about people actually having more fun modding than playing
the game.Of course we knew modding was not going to pay us,(oops) that's been changed
now by greedy Valve:-)
Well you're still not being paid when you think about it. 75% profit goes to valve and Bethesda still needs their cut. Just how much are you really going to make through modding. If your mod is good you might make more money through donations then through Workshop.
Post edited April 26, 2015 by Magmarock
Posted April 26, 2015
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Johnathanamz: Godforbid a donation option existing so all PC gamers world wide can download the mods for free whenever they want to or have the option to donate money whenever they want to right?
All of your substantial donations to these modders aside, people keep on saying that as if there's a difference between content creators if they're working independently or under a company that somehowmakes one ok to be premium and the other obligated to be free with only optional monetary gain based on goodwill alone. There isn't. :P

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Gnostic: *snip*
So you have a problem with them using "modder" in the same way religious bigots have a problem with gay couples using marriage instead of 'civil union'...and the rest is your problem with money and how your personal view is that cosmetics are similar to donations because they're not required while content makes it feel like people are missing out if they don't get it. Gotcha.

But the DLC/Content part from modders/<insert your politically correct term of choice> isn't canon so it's not essential. I can see plenty of Neverwinter Nights mods that people enjoyed more than the main game and those would have been great purchases if they were released as premium content. An unwillingness/lack of desire to pay for them isn't the same thing as them not being worth the money or not being allowed to charge money for them. I'm not sure if you're willing to understand that much.

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Magmarock: I was saying that forcing people to pay for something that's normally free is always going to get a bad reaction.
We haven't ever had the chance to have a premium mod market due to the legal issues though. So it's not fair to say that it should always be free just because the option was never there before.
Posted April 26, 2015
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Johnathanamz: Godforbid a donation option existing so all PC gamers world wide can download the mods for free whenever they want to or have the option to donate money whenever they want to right?
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MaximumBunny: All of your substantial donations to these modders aside, people keep on saying that as if there's a difference between content creators if they're working independently or under a company that somehowmakes one ok to be premium and the other obligated to be free with only optional monetary gain based on goodwill alone. There isn't. :P

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Gnostic: *snip*
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MaximumBunny: So you have a problem with them using "modder" in the same way religious bigots have a problem with gay couples using marriage instead of 'civil union'...and the rest is your problem with money and how your personal view is that cosmetics are similar to donations because they're not required while content makes it feel like people are missing out if they don't get it. Gotcha.

But the DLC/Content part from modders/<insert your politically correct term of choice> isn't canon so it's not essential. I can see plenty of Neverwinter Nights mods that people enjoyed more than the main game and those would have been great purchases if they were released as premium content. An unwillingness/lack of desire to pay for them isn't the same thing as them not being worth the money or not being allowed to charge money for them. I'm not sure if you're willing to understand that much.

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Magmarock: I was saying that forcing people to pay for something that's normally free is always going to get a bad reaction.
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MaximumBunny: We haven't ever had the chance to have a premium mod market due to the legal issues though. So it's not fair to say that it should always be free just because the option was never there before.
First you say that I use strawman and then you go and strawman me. Or maybe you haven't read my post correctly. You seem to think that I'm saying that mods should never be paid for, when what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be forced to pay. Especially through system such as Steam. This is twice I've had to say this now.
Posted April 26, 2015
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Magmarock: You seem to think that I'm saying that mods should never be paid for, when what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be forced to pay. Especially through system such as Steam. This is twice I've had to say this now.
I consider mods being free with optional donations to be the same thing as keeping it always free because the main requirement of that is that they remain free for those who don't want to pay for it. Johnathan is also a proponent of that view.

I'm assuming "forced to pay" means that you're opposed to having to buy it like a regular product with no free version provided by the developer/modder/(politically correct term for persons that create these things) available. Am I understanding you?
Posted April 26, 2015
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Magmarock: You seem to think that I'm saying that mods should never be paid for, when what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be forced to pay. Especially through system such as Steam. This is twice I've had to say this now.
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MaximumBunny: I consider mods being free with optional donations to be the same thing as keeping it always free because the main requirement of that is that they remain free for those who don't want to pay for it. Johnathan is also a proponent of that view.

I'm assuming "forced to pay" means that you're opposed to having to buy it like a regular product with no free version provided by the developer/modder/(politically correct term for persons that create these things) available. Am I understanding you?
Well I think that view is a bit silly and who is this Johnathan.


Not necessarily. I don't think mods should be sold like products yes, but you could ask for donations or a patrion to start working on mod. (Kind of like a kick starter) I don't think this would be a good idea, unless that's one hell of a mod you've got and reputation to boot. But you're free to try it and there's no force involved.

The way Steam is doing though. Especially with their reputation of early access games. They (Valve) have no busyness charging people for mods.
Posted April 26, 2015
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MaximumBunny: The biggest problem with all of this is that most people don't actually understand what the real problems with this are. :P

Not wanting to pay, not valuing someone's time and effort, not valuing the field they're in, clinging to the past - these are all popular opinions but invalid arguments ya know.

"I don't want to pay for mods. Therefore, charging for mods should be illegal or strongly frowny faced upon." - The basic argument. The rest that follow like the "75% OMG!" gripe are pseudo-defenses pretending to be protecting the modders basic rights (or something) by the same people who are trying to prevent them from being able to sell them in the first place. You vote it 1 star, harass them, tell them they're scum for not giving it out for free, then say they should be making more for their work if they make anything at all. THAT type of crap is a problem.

You're doing that logical fallacy thingy where you're drawing strawmen conclusions. For example: "We legalize driving cars and then what's next? Tanks for everyone? The world will be destroyed. It's absurdity!" You should instead compare it with like-things that take time and effort/skill. A bridge toll or a subscription service is more in line with being charged for walking into stores than modding, doing an art commission, or being a mime.

If you disagree with paid mods then that's fine. People hated paying for TV too when analog was being shut down. I just suggest that you really step back and think about the whole situation. It's not all bad and suggesting that it is is juvenile. But it's also far from perfect.
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Magmarock: I don't see how this is a straw man. I was saying that forcing people to pay for something that's normally free is always going to get a bad reaction.

The key word is forcing. If you want to be paid for modding then all you need to do is ask. If your mod is good I'm sure people will be happy to dish out the cash. Also I'm not sure about the USA but TV is still free over here.
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gunsynd: Yes well Skyrim was very rough when it was released,continually crashing and what fixed
it was modders.And your right about people actually having more fun modding than playing
the game.Of course we knew modding was not going to pay us,(oops) that's been changed
now by greedy Valve:-)
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Magmarock: Well you're still not being paid when you think about it. 75% profit goes to valve and Bethesda still needs their cut. Just how much are you really going to make through modding. If your mod is good you might make more money through donations then through Workshop.
If I were to sell mods,no one and I mean no one will take that percentage from me.
As it is I've got more on my plate than to worry about making money of mods.
I mean the time and effort is not worth it...
Posted April 26, 2015
I am neutral about this. But the current problem, every mod-er just forget that his mod is using other people work as the base (this is including translation, texture, etc). They forget to give them proper credit or even ask for permission. Sure these people have given their permission but it is while his mod is FREE NOT PAID (which is a different, just look the fishing mod (taken down) and wet and cold (DMCA problem)). If the maker of the mod does not want do this, he should build his own mod from the scratch without using anyone works as his base.

This is what actually make (for me) said: If you start this mod as FREE, you should keep it for FREE (actually this is just: don't dig your own grave). But nevertheless, it is the mod-er decision if they want do that (they want to give proper credit or not). Just don't back crying if suddenly the mod-er facing the law (as they can freeze your bank account too).

This is only 1 problem, there is another problem, from the customer support, copyright issue, compatibility, and so on. All of this will become the mod-er only problem once he/she make a profit. If the mod-er ready for it, go ahead, no-one hold them.

edit:
TLDR: valve and Bethesda will not help the mod-er as it is clearly stated in their FAQ. If something problem: ask politely to the author. Which can be inferred: they will not giving any support to either mod-er not user if there is a problem.
Post edited April 26, 2015 by deviller
Posted April 26, 2015
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Magmarock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGKOiQGeO-k

I like TB's videos but when it comes to paying for mods I am strongly against this idea for a number of reasons.

1. More copy right nonsense. One of the best things about mods is that they allow people to make things without worrying about CR (Copy Right) “most of the time.”

Mods are kind of like fan art projects. No one is going to go to court because their kid drew a picture of Mario and so it should be with mods as well.
I feel that once you start charging for mods you’ll also restrict what is and is not legally allowed.

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JDelekto: I think you're absolutely correct about the "fan art" part of it, once people start monetizing off of any copyrighted material, hand-drawn or not, it is going to raise several eyebrows and should you make a significant amount of money, the copyright owners are going to want a piece of the pie.

That's assuming that you make enough money from the exercise, the copyright owner could, if they're a total jerk-wad, just take you to civil court and have you slapped with punitive damages that exceed more than you made from the sales.
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Magmarock: 2. More monopolising and Steam dominance. TB has touched up on this in his video but I want to go a little more into. I’m not completely against the idea if paying for mods, but I am against the idea of it being done through Steam. What if you don't use Steam. What if you bought your game through GOG will I have to start paying for mods for Unreal Tournament and get it on Steam to boot because I got on GOG instead.

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JDelekto: I don't use steam for its games or its mods. I ended up using steam because the few games that I bought (which I thought were stand-alone (like GTA IV and Skyrim), installed that bloody steam client and after spending about ten minutes installing a crap load of stuff from the DVD, turned around and made me wait another fortnight while it downloaded the whole damn game (I assume with updates), taking up precious disk space as well as time. As much as I liked playing Skyrim for the first few hours, I decided that Zenimax pretty much killed the franchise and I wasn't going to invest anything more in it.
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Magmarock: 3. Modding is something you know you won’t get paid for. Modding is a good way to get a job in the industry and show what you can do. However, no company is going to through any kind of money at you until they see what it is you can do. Some times you have to work for free before you can be paid.

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JDelekto: I think this statement is somewhat misleading. I don't think that you have to work for free before you can be paid. However, I think that when most people discover their "labor of love" and are determined to be good at it, getting paid for your efforts is a side-effect and eventually a career. As an example, I started programming computers when I was young because it was fun, challenging and I really liked to see the outcome as well as how other people reacted to or enjoyed what I had created. I never charged them to use the programs I created, because I didn't have to worry about paying for a roof over my head or putting food on the table.
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Magmarock: 4. Quality assurance, we have enough problems with early access and kick starter; charging for mods could escalate things and make everything worse. How are you to if the mod works.

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JDelekto: I assume you meant "How are you to know if the mod works." Usually, you don't know whether it works or even if it is something you really care for. Just as there aren't many "playable demos" these days, I seriously doubt that modders would go out of their way to create a limited "playable demo". I don't think that mods should be marketed, however, I see no reason why a person who spent a lot of their time making a very complex and fun modification to a game could ask for a "PayPal Donation." I have given several PayPal donations to people who write software (in an open-source non-commercial settings) which I've found useful.
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Magmarock: 5. If it’s always been free it should stay free. TB said that just because something has been free for years doesn’t mean remain free. I disagree. When making mods you know you won’t get paid for it. TB used youtube videos as an example. Fair enough but it’s not like I have to pay a dollar every time I watch a TB video. He gets sponsored, but I don’t actually have to pay to watch his videos.

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JDelekto: I'm actually getting pretty annoyed with YouTube. It used to be a wonderful site to share videos which didn't require people to watch advertising. However, that's all changed (and understood why), but I think that any of the money people pay to watch YouTube ad-free doesn't see that money line the pockets of the people who created viral videos that made it quite the media giant. In a sense, those videos are still free, but someone else is making money off of them. What happens when a person who has a video on YouTube decides to sue? I'm sure their video will be pulled off the site, completely bypassing the whole purpose of having the site in the first place.
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Magmarock: When something has bee free for years people don't like being told to suddenly pay money for it. Think of public restrooms or being charged to simply walk into a shopping center. Also bare in mind that there are a lot of jobs people do every day without being paid. Such as house hold chores.

In short modding has been free to for a long time. For people to start charging for it as if it was a product now.

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JDelekto: Funny you mention public restrooms. They have these "concierges" posted in the public park restrooms to hand you paper towels when you need to use the restroom during the Renaissance Festival here. I don't know if I would include "household chores" as a job in which you are not being paid. In exchange for diligent house cleaning, you are rewarded by having a pleasant environment, not one which harbors stench or enough pizza boxes to fall in and trap you for days. If you still live with your parents, it might even net you an allowance.
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Magmarock: 7. I do agree with TB that Patrion or an optional donation system would be pretty good. Something asked but not forced.

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JDelekto: Agreed, as I had noted above.
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Magmarock: 8. Remember this is simply my opinion, feel free to disagree all you wish.

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JDelekto: Usually these days, if people want your opinion, they'll give it to you. :)
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Magmarock:
Post edited April 26, 2015 by JDelekto
Posted April 26, 2015
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Gnostic: *snip*
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MaximumBunny: So you have a problem with them using "modder" in the same way religious bigots have a problem with gay couples using marriage instead of 'civil union'...and the rest is your problem with money and how your personal view is that cosmetics are similar to donations because they're not required while content makes it feel like people are missing out if they don't get it. Gotcha.

But the DLC/Content part from modders/<insert your politically correct term of choice> isn't canon so it's not essential. I can see plenty of Neverwinter Nights mods that people enjoyed more than the main game and those would have been great purchases if they were released as premium content. An unwillingness/lack of desire to pay for them isn't the same thing as them not being worth the money or not being allowed to charge money for them. I'm not sure if you're willing to understand that much.
What, you think Third party DLC developer (paid modders) should enjoy the same perks as a free modder?
I am going to copy and paste what I said

Bethesda DLC developers got shaft for horse armor DLC, don't you think it is unfair paid modders does not need to put up with the same thing? Why do you think paid modders should have the same respect and perks a free modders have?

When a modder sell his mods, he sold his immunity and perks as a modder too. He no longer enjoy diplomatic immunity legally and otherwise. Not only his mods are open to legal repercussion, he is also open to the negativity of the customers as he don't hold the respected position as a free modder to protact him.

"But if I don't do something unreasonable like horse armor, I should not suffer the negativity."
Well look at the Witcher 3 recent DLC. It gives 30 hours of gameplay and takes the studio around one year to developed it. There are still people angry that it is not given for free.
"But that's unreasonable!"
Devs and publisher has been sucking these negativity up for years, why you think it should be different for your? Remember, you are no longer the people Champion, you are one of the Third Party DLC developers now. Why do you expect you have to be treated differently?

If you can suck it up, then Welcome to the Game Development world. Its not all sunshine and rainbow like you imagine, but you have a better chance of surviving.

If you cannot put up with that, well you might want to think about your career options.
Posted April 26, 2015
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MaximumBunny: So you have a problem with them using "modder" in the same way religious bigots have a problem with gay couples using marriage instead of 'civil union'...and the rest is your problem with money and how your personal view is that cosmetics are similar to donations because they're not required while content makes it feel like people are missing out if they don't get it. Gotcha.

But the DLC/Content part from modders/<insert your politically correct term of choice> isn't canon so it's not essential. I can see plenty of Neverwinter Nights mods that people enjoyed more than the main game and those would have been great purchases if they were released as premium content. An unwillingness/lack of desire to pay for them isn't the same thing as them not being worth the money or not being allowed to charge money for them. I'm not sure if you're willing to understand that much.
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Gnostic: What, you think Third party DLC developer (paid modders) should enjoy the same perks as a free modder?
I am going to copy and paste what I said

Bethesda DLC developers got shaft for horse armor DLC, don't you think it is unfair paid modders does not need to put up with the same thing? Why do you think paid modders should have the same respect and perks a free modders have?

When a modder sell his mods, he sold his immunity and perks as a modder too. He no longer enjoy diplomatic immunity legally and otherwise. Not only his mods are open to legal repercussion, he is also open to the negativity of the customers as he don't hold the respected position as a free modder to protact him.

"But if I don't do something unreasonable like horse armor, I should not suffer the negativity."
Well look at the Witcher 3 recent DLC. It gives 30 hours of gameplay and takes the studio around one year to developed it. There are still people angry that it is not given for free.
"But that's unreasonable!"
Devs and publisher has been sucking these negativity up for years, why you think it should be different for your? Remember, you are no longer the people Champion, you are one of the Third Party DLC developers now. Why do you expect you have to be treated differently?

If you can suck it up, then Welcome to the Game Development world. Its not all sunshine and rainbow like you imagine, but you have a better chance of surviving.

If you cannot put up with that, well you might want to think about your career options.
Very apropos and it doesn't go for just the gaming world, but for any other business of software development, hardware development, etc.

If you make a great game which nets its publishers' some money, you have a good job; if you don't produce, you flop and they'll drop you like a hot potato.

It's not all Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows
Posted April 26, 2015
Here's why it sucks:
- Good content creators are skilled enough to make their own indie games and sell them if they want to make money off their coding \ design \ art talent.
- Bad content creators will soon fill that paid workshop with crap content hoping to make some easy buck. Just like Early Access or Greenlight.
But there is a good side of this fiasco: I can see a lot of new faces here on GOG :)
Posted April 23, 2016
so now that this is back in the news what does everybody think about this now?

you know when the whole thing with paid mods hit it was actually a big enough that I even fired off a couple emails Valve's way. no idea if they were read. I didn't even say much, I've said far more substantive things on the matter here. I was trying to keep it really simple and concise because I knew they had probably thousands of emails in their inbox.

I still think that there's something to being able to market and moentize this stuff. I think there's some long-term good to come from it for the Steam platform and for modders.

but, as I've started to mod Skyrim on my recent playthrough of it now, I'm more worried about what it'll do to modding in terms of downsides than I was. that's before you even get to the whole corporate control slippery-slope stuff.

so now that this thing is coming around again and Valve and Bethesda are likely to follow through on their rumblings about it being successful if applied from the getgo, what are opinions now? I don't have particular interest in the fallout series anymore. but I have grown very fond of Elder Scrolls.
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Community
General discussion Paying for mods(39 posts)(39 posts)
(39 posts)