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It makes sense in a way I guess.
Some people might find it easier to try it out if they don't have to learn a new system and they have the LoTR license anyway.
And they can re-use a lot of the material from The One Ring RPG.
You know, if Gandalf was in D&D he wouldn't even be a pure wizard, he'd be a lvl 3 Fighter multi-classed with a lvl 1 Wizard. I mean the guy can light up a cave but he can't even throw a fireball or magic missile.
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Crosmando: You know, if Gandalf was in D&D he wouldn't even be a pure wizard, he'd be a lvl 3 Fighter multi-classed with a lvl 1 Wizard. I mean the guy can light up a cave but he can't even throw a fireball or magic missile.
He's capable of such spells, he just chooses not to because he wants humanity to lead their own destiny. He's just a "guide" if you will.

And his Wizard spells are OP.
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Darvin: …where its impeccable class balance…
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Leonard03: Really? In our current D&D group we have a player who owns every 4th edition book. And we regularly laugh at his tales of insanely broken character combinations.
Relative to 3rd edition, yes.

I'm aware that you can create sick builds in almost any system, but that's missing the point. Wizards didn't even need specific character combinations to be broken in 3E, they just were gamebreaking right out of the box. On the other hand, classes like the Monk were so hopelessly weak that they didn't even function correctly in their area of specialization and required careful optimization just to bring them up to a functional level.

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Crosmando: You know, if Gandalf was in D&D he wouldn't even be a pure wizard, he'd be a lvl 3 Fighter multi-classed with a lvl 1 Wizard. I mean the guy can light up a cave but he can't even throw a fireball or magic missile.
Given what they actually are, I'd say "Wizards" of Middle Earth are better represented as unique creatures using the monster rules rather than as characters with class levels. In general the D&D wizard is class is a poor fit for Middle Earth. Magic in D&D tends to be flashy but highly localized and dissipates quickly. Magic in Middle Earth tends to be subtle but very persistent and potentially far-reaching. We're more likely to see the evil villain cast a cloud of darkness to cover an entire country than we are to see him huck a fireball in Middle Earth. The kinds of magic that exist in these two settings is just very different, and reconciling that will probably be one of the main focuses of this sourcebook.
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If you're talking about overpowered setups in D&D, keep in mind that 3.5e admits the monstrosity that is Pun-Pun.
[url=http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build]http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build[/url])

(What happens here is that the build uses polymorph and an ability to get the target form's supernatural abilities to get an ability that was never intended to be player usable, and in gaining the ability, manages to break the entire game.)
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Elmofongo: He's capable of such spells, he just chooses not to because he wants humanity to lead their own destiny. He's just a "guide" if you will.

And his Wizard spells are OP.
I'd like some evidence for this.
To attack the entire system just because somebody makes a silly claim that 3.5 allows X is just silly. That build makes a lot of assumptions that frankly are not legitimate. It uses rules from a 3.0 book which were never updates to 3.5 for example. It also makes gross assumptions. For example, it assumes one can use powers that specifically requires one to be a certain race while polymorphed into another race. Just because some idiot can argue that the rules allow it, doesn't make it so.

D&D rules have always been fairly open-ended so that one can build monsters or characters to fit one's imagination. It's why you have a DM and the DM will tell you "No" for every cheesy third-party broken class, feat or spell you want allowed into the game.

What made 4th edition so unlike the other editions is that it was very restrictive in what one could do and turned combat into an MMORPH and took most of the creativity away.
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RWarehall: D&D rules have always been fairly open-ended so that one can build monsters or characters to fit one's imagination. It's why you have a DM and the DM will tell you "No" for every cheesy third-party broken class, feat or spell you want allowed into the game.
It's not always possible to tell in advance whether something will break the game. In fact, many commercial cRPGs have major balance issues (and sometimes major exploits) when released.
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RWarehall: D&D rules have always been fairly open-ended so that one can build monsters or characters to fit one's imagination. It's why you have a DM and the DM will tell you "No" for every cheesy third-party broken class, feat or spell you want allowed into the game.
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dtgreene: It's not always possible to tell in advance whether something will break the game. In fact, many commercial cRPGs have major balance issues (and sometimes major exploits) when released.
But when you have a Dungeon Master that can say "No", it shouldn't matter. Even the official 3.5 living Greyhawk campaign had additional rules specifying disallowed feats and rules clarifications.

Personally, I'd rather more things be potentially allowed (like in 3rd edition) than 4th editions very specific MMORPH-like rule set, so the group can have their own game and its up to the DM to balance it out.

In short, it's less the system and more a bad DM if they allow that.
Post edited March 15, 2016 by RWarehall
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Elmofongo: He's capable of such spells, he just chooses not to because he wants humanity to lead their own destiny. He's just a "guide" if you will.

And his Wizard spells are OP.
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Crosmando: I'd like some evidence for this.
Here is someone's explination of Gandalf here:

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/i_am_going_to_read_the_lord_of_the_rings_books_for_the_first_time/post126
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dtgreene: If you're talking about overpowered setups in D&D, keep in mind that 3.5e admits the monstrosity that is Pun-Pun.
[url=http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build]http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)[/url])

(What happens here is that the build uses polymorph and an ability to get the target form's supernatural abilities to get an ability that was never intended to be player usable, and in gaining the ability, manages to break the entire game.)
That cheese build relies upon a lot of incorrect rules-lawyering. It falsely assumes one can use all the magical abilities of the assumed form while polymorphed. It is erroneously listed as a 3.5e Optimized Character Build. It relies upon a 3.0 feat, Assume Supernatural Ability, that was not reintroduced in a 3.5 publication. Therefore the build cannot be replicated as either a pure 3.0 build nor a pure 3.5 build. It also mixes material from the Forgotten Realms and Eberron settings. Not that any of this would matter to detractors of 3rd Edition or 3.5...
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dtgreene: If you're talking about overpowered setups in D&D, keep in mind that 3.5e admits the monstrosity that is Pun-Pun.
[url=http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build]http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)[/url])

(What happens here is that the build uses polymorph and an ability to get the target form's supernatural abilities to get an ability that was never intended to be player usable, and in gaining the ability, manages to break the entire game.)
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ValamirCleaver: That cheese build relies upon a lot of incorrect rules-lawyering. It falsely assumes one can use all the magical abilities of the assumed form while polymorphed. It is erroneously listed as a 3.5e Optimized Character Build. It relies upon a 3.0 feat, Assume Supernatural Ability, that was not reintroduced in a 3.5 publication. Therefore the build cannot be replicated as either a pure 3.0 build nor a pure 3.5 build. It also mixes material from the Forgotten Realms and Eberron settings. Not that any of this would matter to detractors of 3rd Edition or 3.5...
Actually, the original version of the build did not require anything from 3.0. The essential ingredients were as follows:

Egoist (from Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH)): Allows access to the Metamorphosis power (from XPH), which works like the "Polymorph Self" spell, complete with all the issues involved.
Metamorphic Transfer feat (from XPH): This allows the use of a supernatural ability from the assumed form. This is how the Manipulate Form ability is aquired. (Note that, unlike Assume Supernatural Ability, this ability was printed in a 3.5 publication.) Supposedly, this can only be used 3 times a day, but the description doesn't clarify what that means for passive abilities. (Manipulate Form is active, so it is clear how the limit applies, except for using it to give your psicrystal (or kobold henchman) Manipulate form.)
Psicrystal Affinity feat (again, from XPH): This gives you a psicrystal that you use Metamorphosis on to turn into a scaled one, to act as a target for your first Manipulate Form.
(Overchannel from XPH is used in the build, but it's technically optional; it just makes the build possible at level 12 rather than level 14.)

In other words, the build is possible in 3.5 alone.

I consider the existence of this build to be evidence of one specific issue: Polymorph effects are too broad because the list of creatures you can change into is open-ended. (Then again, the wiki article mentions a few other ways to get that ability.)

If, as a DM, you do not want to allow this build, the best way to deal with it is to put some sane limits on polymorph effects. Simply restricting the forms to those in the Monster Manual is a good start; that way adding a new monster to the game doesn't risk giving the player access to an ability that PCs were not intended to have.

Edit: Actually, if you don't like psionics and are willing to wait until level 17, you can use the Shapechange spell (from the Player's Handbook) to change into a form and get the supernatural abilities of that form. In other words, the only thing outside of the core rulebooks that this exploit requires is the Surrukh monster entry so you can get Manipulate Form; your actual build doesn't actually need anything outside the core rulebooks. (Of note: I believe you need 3.5 Shapechange, as I don't think 3.0 Shapechange gives supernatural abilities.)
Post edited March 17, 2016 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: snip
Again assuming the most cheese-weasily interpretation of how powers work.

How about we start with the fact that the "class" Divine Minion isn't even a player character class...
It is a monster template meant for the most important servants of deities. The D&D equivalent of Jesus with respect to God. Yet you inexplicably condemn the entire game system based on calling this a valid build?

How about you explain why any deity is going to appoint a 1st level character such or what sort of great deed this 1st level character did that was so amazing to warrant such a thing from inception.

Seems you wish to distort the truth a great deal in order to advance your personal crusade against this edition of the game....
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dtgreene: snip
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RWarehall: Again assuming the most cheese-weasily interpretation of how powers work.

How about we start with the fact that the "class" Divine Minion isn't even a player character class...
It is a monster template meant for the most important servants of deities. The D&D equivalent of Jesus with respect to God. Yet you inexplicably condemn the entire game system based on calling this a valid build?

How about you explain why any deity is going to appoint a 1st level character such or what sort of great deed this 1st level character did that was so amazing to warrant such a thing from inception.

Seems you wish to distort the truth a great deal in order to advance your personal crusade against this edition of the game....
It isn't a personal crusade against the edition of the game; it is just an explanation of how the developers accidentally created an exploit that breaks the game more than any other exploit I am aware of. If you actually read my last post (prior to this one), you will notice that I actually suggest a simple house rule that would prevent this exploit without having to rework or forbid major sections of the rules.

As for Divine Minion, it's not even needed for the exploit to work. You can do it at level 12 with just core + XPH, or at level 17 with just core. (Exception: You still need the book Surrukh is in to change into the form, but the actual build doesn't require anything from the book.)

To put it another way, simply introducing the Surrukh creature into the game makes it possible for PCs to get an ability that they shouldn't have, which completely breaks the game. No need for a PC's build to change (Shapechange and Metamorphic Transfer are a bit too powerful as written).

I don't know how polymorph effects work in later versions of the game, but I am pretty sure they made them more limited in order to prevent this sort of exploit from appearing. I believe some later 3.5 supplements included single-form polymorph spells and started giving monsters an ability that makes (or is at least supposed to make) polymorphing into them impossible.
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dtgreene: snip
Again, you miss the entire point. The character you mention is impossible and requires very broad interpretations of the rules. It makes assumptions that clearly are not in the spirit of the given rules and any reasonable DM should see that any "increasing loop effect" is not what was intended and interpret the wording accordingly. This isn't Magic: The Gathering.

So, no, one cannot do that as you claim. Not true, not in the rules. It reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where George Castanza denies a win in a game of Trivial Pursuit because of a typo on the card "Moops" instead of "Moors". And if that is the basis of poor design.................

Those powers were meant for GODS!

And I'm saying this as a long-time Living Greyhawk judge (and player) and former D&D Open judge. I've heard so many so-called super builds and the more super they get, the more liberties they take with the rules.
Post edited March 17, 2016 by RWarehall