I have a feeling that most gamers would say that a bad heavy story can be worse than no story (or, rather, an excuse plot that gets out of the way).

(By "heavy", I mean that the story is a large part of the game, and in particular said game has a lot of cutscenes and similar devices to tell said story; in other words, the story doesn't get out of the way.)

Now, whether it's better to have a good heavy story or an excuse plot is more of a debate (I'd prefer the excuse plot, actually). There's also the issue that even excuse plots can have issues (the "damsel in distress" trope, in particular, tends to show up frequently in excuse plots; see Super Mario Bros. for example).

oh yeah, a bad story that is heavily integrated into the game can be worse than no story. However, I also somewhat feel that a heavy story, good or bad, is something that might be a deal breaker for me. I play games to play them, not read books of text (optional text, such as MW books, or Witcher bios and the such are fine), or watch hours of movies while waiting to get my character back, or missing huge plot points by skipping them.

I generally prefer games that have stories, but sometimes, a game doesn't NEED a story. Sometimes it is nice to just sit back and blow things up.

Honestly, I dislike games that are heavy on cutscenes. I tend to feel more like I am watching a movie rather than playing a game.

For what it is better to have, I honestly feel that it would heavily depend on the gameplay itself, and what the game/story wants to do. If the game play is like Doom, a heavy story or even 'excuse' plot would basically get in the way. If a game wants the player to end up in a certain place (with place not necessarily being physical, but just a general sense), then having a heavy story can be good.

Sometimes even the 'damsel in distress' trope can be a good story, though cliches in general usually *need* to be 'good writing' or they end up being trite or just ridiculous.

How do you feel about audio logs? Personally, I think the first big game to do them (Shock 1) did them most properly, with a key to terminate, free ability to keep going while you listened, and reading at your own pace.

it is more than amazing ,it just requires maturity to be able to enjoy

folk tend not to pay for something you have never developed

even then, there's money upfront aka crowdfunding...

and as I've pointed out, there just might be enough ppl willing to port for free.. because you know it amuses them..

There was at least one Linux port of Spiderweb games. And as I pointed out, porting the game is only part of the effort involved in supporting a platform. Which is especially true when you're a tiny company. Also, relying on someone porting stuff for free is not exactly something you'd want to lean on in a business.

I hate when people do what he did with his post. I hate when people claim to know the truth.
He uses his reputation to place himself above everyone else and affirm himself as an authority in game writing, trying to pass his opinion off as wisdom.

Yet, some things he wrote made no sense in my opinion.
For example, he writes that movies, tv shows and books are better written than video games, but each of these requires a different type of writing from the others, and they cannot really be compared.
Even movies and tv shows, which are close from one another, are not written the same way, because a movie, in the course of 90 minutes, cannot say the same things as a tv show that runs for a total of 4000 minutes, all episodes combined.

Also, his whole post made me feel like he was bragging, like if he was the only worthwhile writer in the industry, the only one who understands good writing and how to do it.
I am not saying he did not earn his following, but I do not think the writing of his games is the only reason why people are playing them. Since they are games, and since they have to be played, they must at least have good mechanics to be entertaining enough for people to enjoy them.
I do not think that it is possible for his stories to be so insanely good that players continue to buy his games for that alone, especially when I never heard anyone praising them that much, but it is probably because, as he writes, "gamers don't generally care about your game's story".

This was a great post. It was long, but I really liked reading it.

There's a potential accessibility issue if there are no subtitles.

It is, however, a good idea provided that subtitles are at least an option, so deaf gamers, or those who happen to prefer playing with the sound off, can enjoy those logs if they so choose.

You know what, I think you're right, I must have misinterpreted that part. The juxtaposition of criticism for a "cop-out trick ending" and then praise for "clever writing tricks" is jarring to say the least - the unspoken implication being that "people heap praise on its clever writing tricks because their standards are just that pitifully low". I suppose the real lesson here is that Mr Vogel is no literary genius either, or else he'd be able to make his point more distinctly.

As with DTgreene, if there isn't a subtitle, or a, well, 'log' of all the ones you found, then I am not really fond of them.

However, I prefer those to the 'take control from the character' cutscenes, and they are a good tool to get the point across without making the player stop and read or stop and watch something every two seconds.

I tend to be a more textual type person, in that I tend to miss thing if I only hear them, so I need subtitles. I also tend to play with sound lowered, because I live in a small house, and sound carries.

But, as with anything, I feel that there needs to be a balance with audio logs as well. To many, and again, it takes away from the gameplay, because now I am too busy listening to someone tell me the plot of the story.

Thanks. I do tend to type very long replies.


For the part I highlighted, this is very true. Look at books and movies. One of the greatest complaints people have with movies made from books (and one reason I tend to never watch a movie made from a book I liked) is 'they cut the character I liked!' or 'they changed this from the book!'. Because some concepts translate well from a media like a book, where we can have the character thoughts told to us, or we can see action going on 'behind the scenes', and would translate poorly to a movie screen, where the character has to 'monologue' his thoughts to us, and we can only see 'now' without constant cutting back and forth between two scenes.

On the same vein, some things are better done in movies than in books. Ever had someone describe a play by play swordfight? In that every single strike, cut, and blow is described in detail? Most stories I know tend to give broad byplay for action scenes like that, or just do some hand waving and say 'the two characters fought a sword duel'. Because it gets really boring to read a sword fight, but can be very exciting to see one on screen.

A game is sort of a combo of both of those media. We have the visual components of a movie, to see the swordplay (with the added bonus, we can participate! instead of just imagining we are :D), but we also can have the textual components of a book to give us the 'behind the scenes' thoughts and actions that would be hard to actually show. So, as I have said, having a good balance of all the components is a good thing for most games, but, because of the different writing techniques required, I am sure it can be hard for some to achieve that balance of 'show but not tell' and 'this needs telling now showing'.

Each type of media requires its own brand of writing, and they can't really be translated well from one to the other, without loss of something. It doesn't mean that a book is better than a movie (okay, it does in my opinion. I prefer books to movies :D), because a book can often be more nuanced than a movie. It just means that the style of writing is different.

It also means something else. Something that is the big reason you can't really give a 'good formula for success' in these types of situations. It means that each type of media is targeted towards different types of people. Sometimes these types do overlap, as there are people who enjoy both reading books and then seeing movies based on that book to see how a movie handles it. So, there is no 'better' media for storytelling, there is only 'I like this type of storytelling'. Just as different genres of games are targeted towards different types of gamers, so even comparing the stories of those different type of genres can be difficult. The type of story that you would see for an Age of Empires-esque strategy game is vastly different from the type of story you see for a Witcher-esque RPG, and even that differs from the type of story you get with a Morrowind-esque type of RPG.

It doesn't mean one story is 'good' and the others 'bad', just different, and targeted towards different groups of people.

Humble Bundle funded the only Spiderweb game to be ported to Linux, as well as other ports like Legend of Grimrock but then Humble got bought out by IGN and became a generic steam key reseller.

Once again, I really liked your post. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote except for the part I left off.
I do not think that each type of media is particularly targeted towards different types of people.
In the end, I think it is all a matter of taste. If I take myself as an example, there is no media I prefer than the others, and no genre that I particularly like or dislike. There are styles of writing that I do or do not like, however.

For example, I love Uncle Scrooge stories by Carl Barks or Don Rosa, but hate just about anything other writers have done with this character. I also love the first three movies in the Night of the Living Dead film series by George A. Romero, but I absolutely hate The Walking Dead tv series, because I did not like the writing of the show, and I will certainly not blindly like anything that has zombies in it. I love the first three original Resident Evil games, though. Also, I love Star Wars video games based on the prequel trilogy, but I hate the prequel trilogy itself. It is not a matter of media or genre, just a matter of taste.

This is the main reason why, in my opinion, nobody can give a "good formula for success" when it comes to storytelling.

That is really what I meant.

I love detective *movies* and have never read a detective *book* because I am not fond of them. I tend to prefer books to movies, because, as said above, I am a more 'textual' person, and prefer to use my imagination to 'see' what characters look like. I also prefer games to movies, because I want to be *part* of the action rather than a spectator. However, that doesn't mean I shun movies, I just tend to like specific ones/types.

But, ultimately it does come down to a matter of taste, and ultimately, each writer targets those people who like their style of writing.

As I said, there is overlap, sometimes quite a lot, so it isn't like group A *only* likes movies. However, and as you said this is why there is no 'good formula for success', Group A is broken down into a multitude of people. There are people who like detective movies, there are people who like fantasy. There are people who like playing detective games, and like fantasy movies. There are people who like all these.

But basically, your post is what I really meant, because everything is nuanced. There are writers I love. There are writers that I used to love, but they changed their 'voice' (or style really), to something I dislike. There are some who insist making everything political now that I loved previously.

There are some people who will love anything 'zombie' because they love zombies. There are people who will hate anything zombie, because they hate zombies. Then there are people who like some portrayals of zombies and dislike others.

I sort of like vampires, but disliked Vampire: the Masquerade when I played it.

Two examples of how things can be nuanced.

First Example: I played Deus Ex a long time ago and fell in love with the characters and gameplay. One of my fondest memories is hiding in a duct in an MJ-12 facility after stirring everything up, and listening. I hear an 'oh', then hear sounds of a knife, which only scientists have, then all of a sudden, an explosion, which the Men in Black did after they died. I can only imagine that an MIB hurt a scientist, and the scientist took him out... which probably killed a lot of other people who were all milling around. When I heard of invisible war, I was over the moon. On of my favoritist games is getting a sequel. I hated, and still do, Invisible war. They got rid of half the characters I liked, changed the characters of others, and most of the new characters just weren't relatable. The *biggest* issue, though, was their 'universal ammo'. I am amazed that the Deus Ex Franchise could come back from that, to be honest. My main reason for wanting to play Invisible War was because I was hoping to recapture my feelings when I first played Deus Ex.

The second example. I like games with horseback riding, because I am female, and love horses, and can't go riding like I want, so I want to live vicariously through my games :P. I also hated the games that have the trope of 'all women are busty and mostly naked, and all men are, well, who knows, we can't actually see any men, just walking suits of armor or beards. So, I was thinking about this game, and it had horse back riding, and I read a review. In it, the person was complaining that there was one half naked woman, and that she was only in cut scenes, and was the protagonist's *sister*. I bought the game. Then I bought the sequel, and while it wasn't as bad as Invisible War was to Deus Ex, it still wasn't up to the original game. But, it was still fun. My main reason for buying this game (Two Worlds for those curious) was simply contrariness.. Someone was whining that the game didn't have half naked women in it, and I my brain went 'well, that game is going to get bought'.

Basically, each game (bringing it back to the original) can only target those users who like that particular type of game. Whether it means they have good story lines, or a good game play, or a particular style of gameplay, or whatever. The 'forumula of success' is actually 'know what your buyers want'. Anything more specific can really only pertain to individual games.

Please don't capitalize my username in that way. (It's too close to the initials of a politician I have no desire to be associated with in any way.)

Oh, I am sorry.

That is actually an accident, I have an issue where when I capitalize one letter, I either capitalize the second letter instead of the first, or the first two letters, I will go change it. (I usually catch things like that and go back and 'fix' them, but this time I didn't.)