I'm frustrated by how all this Day's topics just ORBIT around Frostburn, and how there's nothing I can do about it, short of being Frostburn's in-game nanny and telling him to follow my lead without question (which benefits Mafia more).

In fact I pretty much told him something to that effect during the Night. The way he was very reluctant to hop on scene and only doing so at the last minute looked scummy, so I called him out in our chat.

If it helps matters, my first post wasn't the only one in which I breadcrumbed. Emphasis mine:

Barring daychat, and sadly Frost and I don't have that, consider what Vitek and Joe have said. Faking our mason claims the way we did would just be way out there. So I breadcrumbed it twice, Frost claimed it, and I finally claimed. Either we're highly coordinated scum who somehow figured out how to pass thoughts to each other without a daychat, or we really are Town Masons.

If Frost and scene were my scumbuddies and I had to bus someone, then not only did Frost bring himself a lot more heat than scene all day long, but scene generally has higher survivability. So bussing him on D1 isn't just weird but also not a great way to earn Townpoints and keep my hypothetical Mafia team from dissolving into water.


Today I'm not willing to lynch Joe or Catventurer. If Vitek's protection of Catventurer IS the reason why the lovers are still alive, that leads me to believe that Mafia had chosen to take out the lovers. If one of the scums is part of the lovers, that means...the Mafia were perfectly happy to take down one of their own in the lovers pair. Of course, this is completely ridiculous.

I'm more inclined to believe that Vitek's protection did work and the lovers are Town, or Vitek's protection did not do really anything and something else happened that led to no night kill and in this case it's still not unlikely that both of them are Town. We could do with another night before seriously considering the lovers.

A gunsmith claim has some implications if true. There could be a vig, a role that traditionally has guns, or a serial killer, a role traditionally known for not using a gun. Maybe other roles that have killing powers with or without guns.

FUN.

yeah sorry, i wasn't meaning to tease you, i just thought it was cute

(i might bother?) because i introduced her to the game, and though i'm not her dad i was in some respects her teacher, and we were colleagues until the school year ended a few weeks ago, so it kinda went like:

[tearful hugging on a glorious sunny day]
Goodbye goodbye I'll miss you stay in touch goodbyee!... ;0
[opens mafia]
Die caitlin!! >:D


or you have daychat? or that's not possible?

This post entirely for Frost's benefit and uses a hypothetical game (just to remove myself from the equation) in addition to the current game.

Okay. Let's say we're playing a hypothetical game where I'm the mod, which is just to completely remove me from the equation.

Theme: The 1980 horror movie The Shining mixed with roles inspired by the table-top RPG Call of Cthulhu.

Theoretical Investigation Team (Town):
Frost: Psychiatrist (same as Mason)
Pooka: Psychiatrist (same as Mason)
Catte: Cat of Ulthar (if killed, millions of cats will show up to avenge his death)
Joe: The Shining (is able to see the horrors of the Overlook and detect ghosts, same as Cop)
Razza: Clergywoman (protected by faith, same as Bulletproof)
Vitek: Doctor (same as Doctor)
Anyone Else: Dilettante (same as Vanilla Town) because I don't want to make up anymore sample roles for a theoretical/sample game

Theoretical Ghost Team (Mafia):
Scene: Possessed by Jack Torrence (same as Mafia Strongman, always night kills with an axe)
Microfish: Possessed by the Grady Twins (same as Mafia Ninja role)
Az: Possesed by Mrs. Massey aka the Woman in the Bathtub (same as Mafia Roleblocker)



You've had a few stand-out bad posts, but I'm going to highlight the two absolute worst:
Post #472: https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_game_77_masters_of_the_universe_edition/post472
Post #492: https://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_mafia_game_77_masters_of_the_universe_edition/post492



Let's Move #472 to the Overlook Setting: Scene is the first one lynched. He congratulates everyone as he drops a spectral axe, telling everyone that he's possessed by Jack Torrance. Everyone is relieved that they can sleep at night without getting an axe to the head. You, however, approach Scene and ask him if Razza, Vitek, Lift, or Catte are members of the ghost team.... when you could have waited until nightfall and consulted privately with Pooka instead.

Post #472 in terms of This Game: If you are a Mason, why are you soliciting advise from Scene when you have Pooka to consult with? The issue isn't who you were asking about.

The issue is entirely who you were soliciting advise from - Confirmed Mafia, while claiming to have a Town role that gives you a guaranteed Town ally that you can trust because the mod (Dedo) states that there are no bastard elements in this game. The only reason to believe you would get good advise from someone on the mafia team in these circumstances (should I go after this person or not on Day 2?) is if you are also a member of the mafia yourself.



Let's Move #492 to the Overlook Setting: In this instance, you're telling everyone that they should lynch Razza on the basis that people with non-specific Town power roles are going to get killed by the ghosts anyway. The other members of the investigation team have yelled at you multiple times saying, "We shouldn't do the ghosts' job for them!!!!" What they should be telling you is, "This is a loosing strategy." Your goal is to try to find the enemy team and lynch them while keeping members of your own team in the game regardless of what their roles - not to help the mafia by lynching people you think might have inferior Town roles.

Post #492 in terms of This Game: The issue isn't who you are going after. The issue is entirely that you are promoting a strategy that has a 100% chance of causing the town to lose and ensure that the mafia team wins. The other issue with this post is that this is not the first time you have promoted this same loosing strategy. It creates the appearance that you don't want the Town to win.



Final Analysis: The reason these things are an issue is because you now have some people focusing their attention on yourself.

In the Overlook setting, this would mean that you have wasted the investigation team's time by making yourself the primary suspect on Day 2, caused people to doubt everything Pooka says, and resulted in not enough attention being given to the remaining ghost-possessed individuals - Microfish and Az. It could also cause Joe to use his ability to check you out on Night 2, when he would otherwise have picked one of the remaining ghost team members. Vitek could likewise waste his ability trying to protect Razza from you when Razza cannot be night killed in this setting.

In the actual game, a similar situation has occurred. If Pooka/yourself are Town-aligned Masons, your behavior has made you look suspicious. So long as someone is suspicious of you, they won't be able to trust anything that Pooka says either. We cannot be suspicious of you without being suspicious of Pooka just for the fact that Dedo says in post #1 that there are no bastard elements. If there were bastard elements, it would be possible for Pooka to have been misinformed and told that you were a Town Mason when you are a Mafia Mason. This means that if you are Town Masons, you really have pulled down your ally.

It likewise means that not enough attention is being given to people who we really should be giving more attention, such as:
Microfish - who still seems rather lurky overall
Az - who was missing for most of Day 1 and nobody really has a strong opinion about him



I hope this helps you understand that it really isn't about targeting me. It's entirely about 1) The appearance of soliciting advise from someone mafia-aligned when you role claim Mason thus should be taking advise from your Mason ally before anyone else, and 2) Suggesting multiple times that we use what would be a loosing strategy for the Town.

I think it unlikely, that we have a SK. Two killing roles and no kill is quite unlikely. I also find it unlikely, that scum voluntarily decided not to kill on N1. Yes, sometimes that can be a good move. But that's rare and I can think of no good reason not to kill on N1.

Also, @Joe: I wouldn't rule out the 'Masons' being fake absolutely, like you seem to suggest. I would definitely not lynch them Today, but they have to be subject to scrutiny or investigation. Blind trust is a way to lose this game, if you are Town. Also, I know you didn't move and still think that role-playing is the same as lying, but you're still wrong. ;-)

Sorry... I wanted to write more but I have to interrupt this. See you later.

Why can't Frostburn do both? Ask scene during the daytime and ask pooka at night?

You kind of assume that Frostburn is going to take any answer that scene gives as honest, when that is not necessarily the case. We can ask something of the mafia knowing that they're likely to lie, and see if anything can be understood from the answer that they do give.

I think the situation you're referring to went:
scene - "but would dedo have put multiple town self-confirmers into one game?"
frostburn - "so they are all town then?"

(i might have remembered this wrong, but whatever probably it's close enough)

there are several answers scene could have given to this which would have been interesting. what is he said "oh bugger i didn't think about what i was doing" or "no, pooka is my teammate" or "you would know you are my teammate".

Now I know what you're going to say "Joe Joe Joe how can we know whether to trust anything confirmed scum says or no?" and you're right - any of the answers i give as example could be bluffs or double bluffs, there's no certain way of knowing. We can PONDER. Maybe based on what we know of scene's character, of how it fits into what we think about the game state.
And it can be Fun to ponder - and therefore I think Frostburn was Entirely Correct to ask questions of scum!confessed scene - if for nothing but the entertainment value alone.


I do think you're being too harsh on Frostburn. Maybe try to see it as - rather than Frostburn dragging pooka down - pooka has confirmed someone who would be otherwise scummy lookin.

It may become clear that we need to re-evaluate this stance later, but I think it should satisfy us for now.


((are you going to run this setup sometime? You should ask the gogfather to add you to the hosting list))

"run the numbers" is such a subtle breadcrumb as to be almost non-existent. That's kind of what I meant about not requiring commitment. However I think you're overestimating how likely I think this is. The fact I'm not willing to totally eliminate both of you as possible scum should not be read as me considering the two of you most likely to be scum. All of my arguments have simply been explaining why you're not lock-town in my eyes, which is why I intend to move on for today.

oh i'd remembered it the other way round

scene goes "the game I played in one of the lovers was a mole in our scumchat and it was really unfair" (it was me, not gogtrial :C) (and it was pretty unfair)
frostburn goes "so one is in your scumchat this time round?"

it's a fair question, and as well as having the benefit of enjoying reading into scene's response (he talks about it in terms of the previous game, not this game. sneaky devil!) it's also serves to highlight a possible scum slip to the other players.

i might be a lot more paranoid about it if it weren't for vitek's action report.

(which i'm still managing to be somewhat paranoiac over)


well. my point isn't that this is towny or scummy from Frostburn, just that I think you're being too harsh. I imagine it can't be very nice for Frostburn to read a critical essay on why he should just stfu


would you call the first breadcrumb subtle?

Ok. I'm back for a bit. What I wanted to ask: what couplings do we have an what necessary conclusions can we draw from them? I'm really not sure what exactly was written where and I can't ISO on the mobile.

So, we have
Joe and Catventurer as Lovers - no necessary alignment configurations.
Pooka and Frostburn as Masons - either both Town or both Scum
Razza and me - Razza confirms me as unarmed. I know she's correct, but you can't trust her completely. But Town Razza means Town lift. And scum lift would mean scum Razza. Since I know that I'm town, I'll put Razza as very likely Town too. It's not impossible, that some scum confirms a town player, to buy town cred. But in this game, with so many semi confirmed town already, I think that would be an unlikely play.
Then we have the Vitek-Catventurer connection. IF Viteks claim is true, and IF his protection was the reason for the missing NK, that would make Catv Town.

However, it is possible that Vitek lied. Für example following scenario is possible: Koba was Town. To balance that, scum was denied the NK by the mod and to alleviate that disadvantage, we got no flip. In that case it might be a chance for scum to semi-confirm two players at once. Pretend that one protected the other and that that was the reason for no NK. ... Far fetched? Maybe, but just an example that Vitek and Catv aren't cleared yet.

So, what other connections did I miss and how hard are they?

Not so much, but easily ignored or forgotten about. I'm not familiar with the reference so it was lost on me anyway.

I said it first!

And it's honey-nut loopy fortified with cocoa bananas!


It doesn't necessarily require dedo to deny the night kill without informing anyone (which i don't think he would on account of it being terrible)
but it does require scum!vitek to counterclaim his scum partner's doc claim which is super risky!

Oh right, it differs from masons by them having just 1 life. My bad.

Now you are downplaying your own actions Today. You sounded quite zealous about Frost being likely mafia and it is bascially only thing you focus on Today. It was no "simply explaining they are not lock-town".


You almost make it sound like you are/were suspectiong yourself. :-) Because I find it bit unbelieveable you of all people would suspect CatV of being mafia with scene.


I would because it is something you could easily ignore as some RVS shenanigans and you can tell people it meant nothing if someone asks later.


To punish mafia for townie fcking up and getting themselves killed would be peculiar decision. If you said dedo cancelled all night actions, I would be willing to concede it as possibility but you can't do that because it would also invalidate razza's claim.
Cancelling just NK, so mafia basically loses night while town gets free one to get their night results, after mafia did nothing to deserve that but one townie did, that's something I would have problem accepting.
Don't forget I would do that after CC'ng mafia scene and getting him lynched.

Kimi No Shiranai Monogatari by Supercell / Nagi Yanagi

Cops have guns. But a cop and a gunsmith together sounds unlikely.

Oh, ok. So then should I take post #295 literally as "I Am a mad scientist's creation." figuratively as "I Am a young looking millennial." or figuratively as "I Am gen z but act like a millennial."?

Yeah Dedo never said the scum don't have daychat.

Someone sane has posted! THANK YOU. It is getting extremely tiring to defend against Catv's OMGUS while he isn't even listening to me.

I Love criticality. In fact I'm more than half Virgo. Do catv's posts look critical to you?

You also missed on Day 1 when Scene role claimed Doctor, and tried telling Joe that he'd protect Joe if Joe removed his vote from the Scene wagon. If Joe complied with the request, all Scene would have to do is remind the rest of team mafia to not kill Joe or me that night.

If Vitek is mafia, it could just be the same thing from the other end. All he'd have to do is claim he protected me after no kill occurred. He did point out to someone else (I can find the post # if you want it) to look at my interactions with Scene on Day 1 and yourself if we really look like we're friends.


If you are suspicious of Vitek, the questions that I think is worth asking though:

1) Why protect someone with the Lovers role? If someone is guarding me, they're gambling that the mafia will go after me directly and not go after me through Joe.

2) Also why even protect someone with no night actions? There has to be better options.


Actually no!

If you're just saying, "Hey Scene. Why don't you tell us who your pals are so that we can lynch them?" then you clearly are doing it for shits and giggles. Nobody should think that you're trying to ask a serious question. :)

The problem is when it's less obvious that it's for shits and giggles combined with advocating for a loosing strategy multiple times, it's hard to not look at it from the point of view if seeking advise from confirmed mafia.

I'm sorry if I come off as harsh. I wrote that post mostly for him and well, it would be highly inappropriate for me to private message -- so no option but to post it in the thread.


That was actually from a scrapped idea from years ago! The mod update posts would also include atmospheric events, including the iconic torrent of blood gushing out of the elevators. I would not consider joining the hosting list until after I have played both town and mafia sides several times but if anyone wants Call of Cthulhu fueled setup ideas, I can be PMed between games. :)

I don't deny that it's captured my attention for most of toDay, but I think you're overplaying my actual stance. Are you confusing me with CatV? I certainly agreed with some of their points, but my stance was and still is "Frost looks scummy, Pooka doesn't look townie enough to rule out that pairing". Everything else has just been defending that viewpoint.