I've already mentioned that I thought HSL had a heavy lean on someone I like as town (Primal Form) when he was hard on a scum wagon (scene's). I thought mchack had done the same. Pure "gut" I tossed my vote there instead.

Still early and not a lot to go on *shrug.* Right now I smell (fear) a split HSL / mchack pair of wagons with a swoop in random 3rd party getting lynched at the 11th hour. But that's just gut too.

Heh.


Heh.


Heh... no.


Nice dodge. How about addressing the case of v/v? I'll take the rest as a bonus.


You tell me, are you feeling that confident after having bussed supplementscene?



And this is exactly what prompted me to poke you in the first place. I was interested in seeing your reaction as your ISO was a collection of floating and skirting posts, and you went full OMGUS on the LHF that dared wake you up from your slumber as our exchange progressed.


That wasn't a defence of anything, just an observation, but knock yourself out adding another piece of evidence to your list. And don't forget, there's an extra large portion of crow just for you.


Most likely because you're pretty much convinced I'm mafia, and are out now to find proof in support of it, so your read of my posts is skin deep, no offence; your argument is that I went out of my way to save a scum-buddy on D1 at the cost of revealing myself as his buddy, and effectively giving town two lynch candidates for the next 2 Days, 3 tops, without town having to break a sweat - you don't ever seem to look beyond D1, nor take a moment to think what the mafia motivation behind those posts could possibly be, if and how it makes sense from the mafia PoV.

So let's assume for a moment that you are right, and that I'm supplementscene's mafia-buddy, and let's look at the D1 events.

- supplementscene is getting heat from a large enough number of people that going down as the D1 Lynch looks pretty much locked;
- at the moment things get most heated, I, as you say, start openly coaching him, apparently in a desperate attempt to save him;
- I keep at it, while supplementscene's actions are convincing people more and more he should go down.

So we reach the end of D1, with the following:
1. Only a miracle will save supplementscene from being the D2 Lynch.
2a. I linked myself to him in such an obvious way that makes me a pretty good, if not certain, D3 lynch candidate.
2b. If I survive D3, I'm under a lot of attention and scrutiny that not only am I again up for the D4 Lynch, but very likely won't survive it this time.

Now, as a member of the mafia team I know how many of us there are; if it's only two of us, D3 is quite likely game over for us, if it's three, then that leaves a single mafia member to carry the game to victory, victory that, based on the C9++ wiki page, is achieved "when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring". That in a setup where mafia is stacked against an 8-9 town team with one or more PRs on top of the Innocent Child, plus a possible SK.

So, take all the above into consideration, then riddle me this - what is my long-term mafia motivation and plan in this play in regards to fulfilling my (and my team's) win condition? To get 2/3, if not all, of my team dead by D3/D4 at the latest, and thus effectively hand victory to town? Does that sound like I'm playing to my win condition?

I stand by what I told mchack - being on the wagon had a lot more value for mafia on D1, and if off the wagon, drawing as little attention as possible was key.

what explicitly do you mean by that: "mchack had done the same"? That I was jumping on Primalform because he was onto scum scene D1? on re-reading my D1 posts you should see that SPf was just my secondbest scumpick after Lift and I hopped over there (from lift) after scenes claim (believing it at first with no time to really check it out) because a lot of people have expressed their willingness to lynch SPf and with the intent of having a chance of lynching scum while saving the claimed "doctor".
Reading (unlike the skimming I did then) up on what I missed after Deadline D1, I came to completely different conclusions, but I think I made those clear by now. So how is this the same that HSL did? Especially when you also take D2 into account.

you realize we already have a split wagon between us and you are the only one tipping the scales in either direction (3 vs 2) and incidentally you are also the only one voting on those two wagons, that I scumread. hmm. Guess that helps in making up your mind on who you'd want dead, I suppose.

Let me quote Dedo for you (and viteks response) when contemplating if scene was fake claiming:

I say nope, it wasn't clear at all that scene should go down. Would you be as heartless a Scumbuddy to scene that you'd hammer him after a Townie called his play bold and near-perfect? I mean, he'd have been bussed for sure if he obviously botched it, but he didn't, his fake was good enough to convince at least dedo (and vitek should he not be scum after all - and trent (at least enough not to risk a hammer) and myself of course in the beginning), so it's safe enough for scum to play like they've been fooled aswell knowing themselves in townie company.

Heh... heh.



I said that it isn't my style, not exactly the same thing.


I said that my scum game isn't as bad as some seem to think; not exactly the same thing.


It wasn't in response to anything or anyone. I had been going over some things, and he was among the people I had made a note to reread (one other was JoeSapphire, but by the time I did, Vitek had already said what I had noticed), and that was what his ISO amounted to.

Frankly, I'm not sure how I see his behaviour. This is not how I remember him playing as either alignment, though it's been a very long time since he was last in a game, so my memory may be faulty.

Up until his latest posts, the best way I could describe him is using show biz terms - he seems more like a special guest appearance than a regular role in the show; that's the picture that popped into my mind every time I saw a post of his. The fact that he pops in and out, ignoring questions he's been asked and attempts to engage him, and just doing his thing, doesn't put him in a favourable light, that's for sure.

And after all this, he makes posts #643 and #647. Which seem to have a couple of layers squeezed into a couple of sentences. Will he provide any clarity before they Day's out? Those posts makes me doubt it.


For the deadline to pass, what else?

I'm, obviously, not going to vote myself, and I don't want a piece of mchack Today. I'm looking at a couple of people, but want to see how things go today, and do a reread tomorrow before deciding.

You are when you don't tunnel hard, and make an effort to look beyond the obvious.

I don't think the situations are even remotely comparable for you to transfer whatever fear you say you have. Putting the technicality aside, in that game I wasn't the only viable wagon, hence I managed to derail mine, while in our game there wasn't even a hint of another wagon, nor any attempt at derailing supplementscene's one; he was the single lonely vote on Lifthrasil, and no-one, his scum-buddies least of all, would even think to follow him, or try to start another over his. Plus we had about three more days to deadline. All in all, hardly any reason to be so concerned to want the Day to end so early.


You're missing the point. The dynamics have changed since D2, and not only because of Lifthrasil getting NK-ed N2.
A couple of things had started surfacing, and had the Day lasted longer, we may have had more coming out of them. By cutting the Day short, that chance got lost for good now; scum regrouped with more info on their hands, and (re)adjusted their strategy.


The best kind of bus looks organic.


I was mafia in that game, and JoeSapphire was town. With the roles reversed, was bringing it up really just a jab? Reminding everyone of that incident, who comes out looking bad, and who doesn't get a second look, if not a tentative town lean, for sitting pretty on the wagon?


And you're missing the point. Again. Before laying out the same arguments over and over again, perhaps you should try and read in full what I posted? Perhaps then you'll finally be able to see the bigger picture, and put EoD1 in its right context? And when you're there, perhaps answer the question I asked SirPrimalform? Unless you don't care to read what I'm writing because you're so sure you got things figured out, and are just cherry picking and taking things out of context to reiterate your point, in which case just say it so I can spare myself the trouble as it's getting tedious.

On a side note, that timeline of yours is overlooking something, and has some misinterpretation, but after this last post of yours I don't think I'm going to bother.

Do you think that you've been doing any sort of game solving besides sussing out iterations of possible teams which you just admitted you're not doing?

And are you ever going to answer questions people have asked you?


Actually, if he's VT, his job in a setup with PRs is to absorb the NK while doing his best to suss out scum during the Day so we can lynch them.

And I'm very much interested in your answer to Vitek's question (latter part) in post #646.

This isn't encouraging. I respect that you were sick and didn't have the time and energy to do a re-read (I hate how much time these use up.)
but saying you'll re-read tomorrow and only then deciding on who you may be inclined to vote (after sufficient questioning, I'm sure) means we might be well into the last 24hours of the day when we get your first vote. On a vitek. I mean on a weekend. (With a vitek who tries out how many days he can go on mafia without voting once. (while being scum?))

Also, why don't you want a piece of me? I find that irritating... where's the good honest omgus? :P

---

heh. as if I'd ever not tunnel hard ;)

ok, I think crow is in order for me.
(I just want to add that this fear of scum getting away is visceral, not always logical. I felt it, ever if there may have been no reason. I'm just glad we achieved lynching scum yesterday, the rest pales to insignificance to that.)

that's too wishy washy for my taste. What things had started surfacing, where we may have had more coming out of? You mean scum slipping up? sure could've happened or not. could happen today or not. Nothing yesterday had higher chances of scum slipping up than today, I think.
How did scum regroup with more info on their hands? they already knew exactly the flip scene would bring. So in their regrouping they had exactly no new info. The only new info we all got at the same time with lifts flip and scum had no time to regroup about that. They got that info, exactly when we did.

what has your most favourite D1 bus been on gog, if I may ask?
(only if you remember, no need to go through old games, time is sparse enough as it is)

huh. I wasn't aware of both your alignments in that game. Yes I guess it makes sense that this jab might be interpreted that way.
But I still think it could've brought you to hammer, if you were truly on the fence about scene and a scum Joe wouldn't have wanted that reaction from a town HSL, now would he? hammering his buddy, who had almost made it.

I have read your entire post in full and have decided to respond to the initial assumptions, because I think, that those were wrong and hence arguments made based on those assumptions don't hold.

The Bigger picture you are trying to paint is scum is better off _on_ scenes wagon D1, or off it and silent (like ixam?) because else they'd be damned to lose 2 people scene and another on D3-4. Whereas if they Bus Scene they could be only 1 down in D3-4.

Sure I can see where you are going with this, but this only holds true if you assume that scene was a Dead man walking D1 . And I pointed out to you that this wasn't necessarily the case, or at least not the percieved case for any scum present at that time. There was in fact _no_ majority to lynch scene back then. Else he'd have been lynched. And the quote by dedo showed to any present scum, that town is at least in part believing the claim. And now there surely was a heated evaluation in any present scum still off the wagon thinking and weighing the pros and cons of bussing scene.

pro:
-some town points. (nothing clearing you though, since as HSL points out, bussing is expected)

con:
-one buddy down already D1. When he could still easily be bussed later for town points.
-a good possibility to have a believed doctor as a buddy, which has amazing feats: such as drawing protection of other doctors thus making them useless and giving cops or other town PR a false sense of security so they might be more easily swayed to out themselves
-practically confirmed town in their ranks, if only the pm copy faction outweighs the false claim faction.
-scene lynch reflects bad on them (nothing damning you though, since not everyone can be on the wagon)

I think by making other assumptions than me you arrive at vastly different conclusions, that's why I challenged your assumptions. But be assured I read your full post and tried to understand it to the best of my abilities.

Use your time however you think it's best invested in catching scum and securing us a lynch. I do, too.

I like to think the vote I pretty much immediately tossed on the scum player you guys managed to No Lynch Day One helped a bit, yes. And I've answered pretty much every question asked of me, except the silly one gogtrail had about my playstyle LOL.

As for the latter part of Vitek's question:

Vitek isn't getting lynched today, pretty sure of that. Whereas I'm generally a fairly easy lynch target. And I've had one active push on me and several other passive ones. I'm not discounting someone else being a quick 11th hour lynch, but I don't think it would be hard for scum to push a wagon onto me if we creep close to deadline at a stalemate.

I don't understand your need to say it wouldn't be hard for scum to push a wagon onto you. Makes me think you are trying to say this so if someone does try to push you for lynch that you can go "I told you so, here comes the wagon on me and it must be scum doing it". If you are town and don't think you are playing a good enough town game then straighten yourself out so a mislynch does not happen on you. If you are scum please continue to make comments like this, I love it when scum give themselves away like that.

So after going back over several players that piqued my interest I have no desire still in voting Vitek, I am getting the same vibe in his questions that I did last game and I still like how Poppy handled herself before she subbed out in his spot. So for me he's a no vote for today.

In the course of doing an ISO on mchack I went back over the EOD 1 again looking at the wagon that started on SPF, and I see Hyper has caught a lot of flak for pushing the wagon yet they were not the one to start it, mchack was.

@mchack Why with about 40 minutes left did you say "since lift isn’t flying there’s still a chance to lynch someone" and vote Sirprimalform when he had no votes on him at all at that point? Why not Vitek who had the second largest wagon at the time? Your vote makes no sense to me if you are actually trying to secure a lynch, it seems like a vote that in the end will not matter because SPF's lynch is more than likely not happening but by golly you were voting.

Vote mchack

I didn't find it odd? Sorry about that, then. I'm glad you let me know.

I like you, so I'll humor the misdirection.
-If it is v/v, then you suddenly stopped just asking questions and started making statements and pushing on a townie, and SPF pushed back.
-If it is t/m or t/sk, then one of you is pushing on scum and scum is pushing back.
-If it is m/sk, then the both of you might be genuinely scum hunting in an effort to look townie.

I have never been lynched as scum, and iirc I've only died as scum once (in the all-SK game). Neither record will be tarnished in this game.

What things started surfacing?

What new information did Scum regroup with?

Another con: If they bus D1 and finish the lynch, then Scene isn't around to burn another town lynch on a later day. If Scene slips past the D1 by the skin of his teeth, even if he's detected as scum while doing so, then that is a wasted town lynch.

I already explained this a few times and if you truly ISO'd me you should have noticed (i.e. #563, #649), but ok. here again for you:

1. vitek was not scummy for me at the time, I don't vote who I don't find scummy. Same as you I didn't find Poppy/vitek as scummy as lift and with lift my highest scumpick (yes I know, I'm not the smartest), poppy/vitek was pretty much cleared for the day for me, as I saw no way that poppy/vitek and lift could be a scumbuddies. (I was pretty vocal about it, too. I think. You should've noticed, if you cared to). Vitek only got scummy for me from D2 onward, mostly because he didn't vote scene.
2. With about 40 minutes left, I had only skimmed the thread, I was at work, I believed the claim of scene, because I didn't have time to really examine it and I started the wagon on SPf because a lot of people had said they'd be willing to lynch SPf (see #563 for a list) and he'd been on my Scumlist on second place after lift already so he was the perfect pick for an alternative wagon for me to save the claimed "doctor." and not let it go to no-lynch.
It's not my fault that scum followed me on my perfectly nice wagon. I still stand by it, that it was a sound choice at the time. But of course, examining scenes claim and recognising it as fake, led me completely different conclusions from start of D2 onward. no need to reiterate again though

Vote Count

mchack - 4: Ixam, flubbucket, Bookwyrm, trent
HypersomniacLive - 2: SPF, mchack
Vitek - 1: Joe
Ixam - 1: gogtrial

Not voting - 2: HSL, Vitek

10 players. 6 to lynch

Day will end around 10 pm Sunday BST (11 pm CEST, 5 pm East Coast).

Still away from home on borrowed awful device. Will be home in 5-7 hours. Of thé 2 biggest wagons I would be more inclined to vote mchack And do not want another no-lynch.
I do not like Ix's recent posts but I still think scene attacking him early on And then throughout D1 gives him town cred and I'd be reluctant to vote fór him because of it.
Got deleted first time, fuck this device.