1. Do you think he's trying to appear more self aware because he's scum trying to fit in?


2. That's a good question. I honestly can't recall if he has or not, but that's something I would like to know as well.

I'm not sure what to think. My recollection of his town-self is him sinking his teeth deep into the flesh of his scum-pick, and latching on like a dog on a juicy bone (no offence meant); the Lifthrasil of this game seems too... tame? Combine that with his "I know I'm usually tunnelling, but look, I'm trying really hard not to, and doing a pretty good job at it too!", along with his "here, have a reads list as proof", and I can't help but wonder if there isn't something there.

I admit, however, that I've not done a re-read on him so far. I will try to make some time within the weekend to check the reads thing.

@adalia Seems like you're trying way too hard to get trent. But then again you're the first to suggest that we should share picks so not very suspicious of you at the moment. Also this post has 9 lines including this one howbow dah? Wonder how old your taking about though given that I've only joined recently (within past 2 years) and people were much more talkative back then compared to now, remember that at least 4-5 more pages of posts used to come up by the time I woke up.
@HSL Kinda get the feeling drealmer may not be town after all from his reaction to your posts, think I'll leave gamma for now.
@trial How'd you read drealmer now?
@drealmer If all hyper did was misrepresent and spin your words, he'd be the first one to go. Unless you're saying we all are too dumb to realize that of course. You say you're invested and interested but somehow you're not posting as much as you typically do, what's up with that?

Unvote Gamma

End of day - 3/9/17

Votecount
GammaEmerald (1): RWarehall
drealmer7 (1): adaliabooks
adaliabooks (1): drealmer7

Not Voting: GammaEmerald, gogtrial34987, Hunter65536, HypersomiacLive, Lifthrasil, trentonlf

Three-way tie at L-4.

I went back over at least 8 or 9 games I could remember Lift being in. The only game I could find where he made any sort of reads list was in Flub's tres leches game, and it was on Day 2 (He was the town doctor that game). Other than that I could not find much of anything as far as read lists went, but you are right and he does tend to latch onto someone like a dog with a juicy bone and not let go until he gets an answer he is looking for and if he is not satisfied stays on them.

Not intended for me but he did refer to his tunnelling in previous game
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/forum_mafia_45_game_thread_a_horrible_human_person/post109

Which did coincidentally come up related to drealmer and as we know his tunnelling did affect that game

Well, how else should I read it? I try to cut you some slack - you get angry and say RL had nothing to do with it. I correct my read, not cutting you slack for RL, and you complain that 'I put a negative spin on it'. But being absent long enough for a prod doesn't need a negative spin. It already IS negative! Maybe I haven't mentioned that before: I don't like lurking!


Good to hear.


Interesting. And good to remember for the future. :-)


Well, if you are scum, this stance makes sense: there's only one player you wouldn't consider voting (your buddy. Bussing on Day 1 shouldn't be necessary). Everyone else is fair game because everyone else is town. Did I get that right?

What messages?


Now that's an interesting 180. Weren't you yourself quite reluctant to answer questions? Wasn't adalia's 'some questions aren't worth answering' brought up originally in support of you? At least that's how it looked to me. What brought about your change of mind?

...Ah, OK. Strike this. You answered this question already further down the line (accidentally hidden in a quote).


Here. Fixed that for you. ... But let me ask you some questions to help you understand why others are mad at you: Do you really think it is OK to disappear long enough to get prodded - without any external reason? Just try to forget for a moment that it was you doing that and imagine how you would react if, say, HSL or I disappear like this and then come back acting all non-chalant.


I think I can answer that. My tunneling problem - especially concerning drealmer - was made painfully apparent to me in the last game. So the memory is still fresh. Well, drealmer got himself modkilled there, but I was totally sure that he was scum. So now I try to be self aware about my tendency of tunneling on him ... and I still find him scummy.

As for going back and doing re-reads, that strongly depends on the amount of time I have and at the moment I am running some large simulations at work and I'm bored while waiting for the results. So, enough time to read.


So. Time to sum up. Adalia and Gamma still seem scummy. Adalia by now more so than Gamma. adalia seems to dig himself deeper in while trying to wiggle out of that 'questions question'. Maybe they're even a team, but maybe adalia just false-buddied up to Gamma. HSL dropped out of my suspect pool for now. But drealmer... sorry if I am latching on to that juicy bone again, but I really think this time it's more than usual. Especially compared to the drealmer from last game. Just what's new after his return: he says he's invested - but makes only a few and very meagre posts. Mostly complaining. drealmer, that's not what invested looks like. Then he votes without explanation as to why. And when asked about it by Hunter, he doesn't reply. Even though he is around. So all in all: yes, drealmer looks like scum to me.

Therefore: vote drealmer

Now that I've addressed other things in the game, let me quickly get to this.

Swear all you want. Just also ask yourself how it can be that every time anyone, I repeat, every single time anyone, has a different opinion from yours, it's always them that fail to understand and never ever you, ask yourself how it can be that every time anyone disagrees with you, it's always them being wrong and never ever you.

Please don't bother replying with your usual "I'm misunderstood/misrepresented/mis-whatever". I'm done with this, so let's get back to the game.

What perspectives would that be regarding you, drealmer7? I've lost count of the times you go "so and so could be scum, but it's also likely that he's not/is town". No kidding. And you hold against adaliabooks him making non-committal posts, and find RWarehall scummy for keeping his options open?


First off, I'd appreciate it if you retained a civil tone, no reason for f-bombs and screaming.

I read what you wrote just fine. What you fail to see and accept is that you are no special case/exception; your posts will be read and evaluated under the same lens as everyone else's. The same way you doubt others and read motives behind what they say, the same way others may, and will, doubt you and read motives behind what you say. Screaming at people that they fail to understand, over and over and over, does not make you more town in their eyes.
You want people to be more receptive and see things the way you do? Drop the drama of how we misunderstand/misrepresent you and twist your words, and start making actual arguments we can discuss.

Lastly, I assume that, since I only commented on a couple of things in your post, this latest outburst is about the way I read your comment about GammaEmerald. Here's what you said with some emphasis added:

I see you using his very own arguments to explain his play appearing scummy, I see you say that not only you don't find anything he's done justify him being people's top scum-pick, but that the votes on him are highly suspect, and I see you giving him the benefit of the doubt as you see his play as less him avoiding questions and more as him being uncertain how to interpret them.

So, let's put it to the judgement of the rest of the players:

Is me saying drealmer7 is giving him a pass, if not town-reading him, twisting his words, and making them mean something they don't? Do you read this part differently, and how?



Actually, that link shows him doing a reads list on D1, so thanks for that.


Will be out the rest of the day, not sure yet of my availability tonight.

I really haven't got anything more to say on the answering or not answering of questions. If you want to say that's scummy and lynch me, go ahead. But right now I think it's a distraction preventing any other discussion.

I'm not really trying to sway others. It's far too early in the game to bother with that. I have presented an argument, it's up to everyone else to decide if it has any merit.

Later on, when we have more to work with and some concrete data (flips) then I might actively try to sway people's opinions. Right now it's pretty pointless, whatever lynch we get today is likely to be as good as any other. We'd have to be fairly lucky to actually hit scum.

I do think trent or drealmer might be scum, but I'm well aware that it's day 1 and that even what looks like a good scum read has the potential to be horribly wrong.

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but again, there's not much to go on day 1 and that (very uncharacteristic for don't-claim-anything trent) spewing of picks after being opposed to the idea (however strongly you believe that opposition was) feels very off to me.

I do read it as that. I believe both trent and drealmer attempted to discourage the idea of pick sharing in as subtle a way as they could, which I can only read as scummy.

As for the rest of his interactions.. a quick skim of his posts says that most of what he talked about was the picks and the WIFOM around them until he posed the "Who is scum?" question.

Was that a townie move to get the game going? Possibly.
Was it scum trying to see who is the prime target to push a lynch on? Possibly.
No particularly leaning either way on that.

After that his next major post was responding to my accusations.

All in all, nothing leaps out to say he feels town so the overall impression for me is definitely scum.

If anything my mostly playing scum and my long absence from the game has dulled whatever town play I had completely...

But this above paragraph is actually my issue with your playstyle (which I generally find very effective), it works best on low hanging fruit. I do cave under pressure, but I do it as town as often as scum (and you'll have to admit that is the case), the more I write the bigger hole I tend to dig for myself, and I can't help it. I can't see the point of playing if I'm not actually going to be involved.
drealmer is actually fairly similar I think, the more he says the worse he looks. So under pressure from you we both end up looking bad, whether we are town or scum.
Now, if we are on opposite teams it's a positive result for you. If we are both town, it's not.

Meanwhile you're not really putting pressure (that I have noticed) on say hunter, trent or gogtrial because they haven't posted as much.
Maybe that's because you find them townie and it's a more conscious decision than that but it doesn't appear that way to me.

Really? I know this is kind of shooting myself in the foot, but I wouldn't count suggesting we share picks as a town action. Given enough thought on the matter (and we knew for days before the game started what the set up was) scum could have realised that sharing picks was inevitable and the best result was to be the driving force behind it to pick up any town cred (which is actually part of my argument against trent)

But as you are obviously of the opinion that sharing the picks was pro town, what is your take on trent and drealmer?

Heh. No comment.

I'd also be interested to know what messages drealmer is referring to. For once I have actually read all his posts.
Also, I don't think I have actually not answered any questions anyone has asked me, despite what I may have said about answering questions. If that is not the case please point out the questions I have missed.

I strongly disagree. While it is true that we have to be lucky to get scum on D1, it is definitely NOT pointless to discuss the reasons for lynching the D1 lynch. If we just go 'meh, it's D1, let's just lynch anyone' we'll have nothing to analyze on the following Day. If we get a mislynch, it is important to be able to analyze who joined the wagon and who pushed it with what given reasons. So talking about reasons and opinions is vital, because it helps find scum later. And all that aside, I am still all for trying to hit scum on D1. So it is better to go for someone who you actually find scummy, rather than just going for anyone, like you seem to suggest.

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if lift was scum now. I obviously haven't been lurking. I explained why I was absent for a whole WHOPPING 3 DAYS on D1, after starting and generating lots of content, and the needing to catch up a bit. that you're making it SO damning is ridiculous. me being away wasn't negative, because I'm town, and it allowed some other things to be discussed, but not MY PARTICIPATION always has to be brought under scrutiny for whatever frikken reasons scum can find because "hey drealmer wagon GOOOOO!!!"

AGAIN, no, IT IS I who am being misunderstood/perspective is not being gotten correctly here

I OF COURSE UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE AREN'T TRYING TO BE SCUMMY!!!! OF COURSE THEIR PERSPECTIVE IS GOING TO BE 'NO I WASN'T SCUMMY THERE' - that isn't me not understanding their perspective, I UNDERSTAND THAT OF COURSE DUH!

AGAIN, all I AM DOING is CONSIDERING OTHER POSSIBILITIES of WHY they MIGHT say SOME THINGS. I put those thoughts out there and try to talk about them and ppl are like "OMG!" It makes no sense, especially coming from you!

-

I also don't understand how my read on adalia is not understood, I've SAID THINGS FROM THE BEGINNING pretty much that should tell why I think he could be scum. My reasons aren't unexplained at all. geebus

dude, that is NOT it, it's not that we HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION

it's that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY PERSPECTIVE!!!

those are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

I understand your perspective fine, but by the questions you ask me, and others, it seems that you either 1.) DON'T GET THEIR PERSPECTIVE, or 2.) ARE TRYING TO SKEW THEIR PERSPECTIVE, like previously described.

it's not DRAMA about being misunderstood, it's that YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE TRYING TO understand or are being difficult (like you actually understand but pretend not to to be goading), I get misunderstood all the time and re-explain and it is fine, there is no way to discuss actual issues if you are MISUNDERSTANDING my perspective ON THE ISSUES

I don't get how you don't get the difference / see the issues, geebus

I didn't say it was pointless to discuss reasons, just for me to attempt to sway anyone one way or another (when my own argument as to why is probably not the best anyway). I also didn't say I would just go for anyone, I will be going for who I believe to be scum; I just acknowledge there's a high chance I'm wrong. But I will vote for practically anyone when it comes down to it as I will not allow a No Lynch to occur (I know we are far off that point though).

Basically unless someone accidentally reveals something said in scum chat and we're 100% sure they are scum what ever reason we use to lynch someone today will probably be slightly suspect. I acknowledge my own reasons probably are too, so I will present them (and restate them) but I'm not going to particularly push for it.

You know what, drealmer, forget it. Of course you are the only one who is right and the only one who understands everything correctly and the only one who is misunderstood. Of course it is impossible that you are the one who does the misunderstanding. Even if you have misunderstandings with everyone else, it of course has to be the fault of everyone else. Geez.
All this reeks of 'drealmer against everyone else' paranoia and I am really sure it wasn't this bad in the last game. Perhaps there you at least tried to give team-play a chance. Now it's again 'you against everyone', probably because it IS you against almost everyone. As in: you're scum. And even if you are not, you really are playing for scum. A town player playing like you provides perfect distraction and mislynch-bait. So IF you are town, which I doubt, please try to remember that this is a team effort. Screaming and sulking doesn't help town and just look like the last resort of a cornered scum.

I'll drop that for now. It's pointless anyhow.

And something completely different: where the hell is RWarehall? It's been 2 days since he last posted!

I'm not likely to forget that anytime soon. I'll investigate and ponder more complex scenarios, but I expect that my vote will very much follow the simple solution.

(Also thanks for your further characterization of adalia.)

The whole drealmer situation is making me sigh in frustration. Before his return, I read it all as mostly NAI, leaning slightly town. I see the frustration as genuine, and most likely coming from a "I want to scum-hunt, but instead I have to needlessly defend myself over this stupid misunderstanding, which is a needless distraction" town PoV, made worse due to history. His long replies were very methodically responding to early posts, in sequence, which I think is a bit silly to do that strongly when you're that far behind (it's always possible to go back later), but seemingly consistent with what I've seen from how he plays.

Right now I feel I won't be able to avoid carefully re-reading and analyzing the entire tangled mess (causing the aforementioned frustrated sigh). There's just way too much heated emotion there, which I don't like at all. My gut feeling is (thus?) that there must be at least one scum involved in it all (because seriously, if it's all town-on-town...) And that could after all be Drealmer (I did start off seeing him as somewhat suspicious, and maybe that was really justified - and his scum-hunting has been nearly inexistent). Or it could be someone jumping at him rather too swiftly upon his return (which is a thing that makes sense to do if you genuinely believe him to be scum, but not if you think he could be town and want to give him a chance to actually be useful to town).

Erm, which I guess is a longwinded way of saying "I don't really know anymore". I'm wondering if I can avoid doing that reread and analysis until after the D1 vote, but fear my vote and/or strong opinion might end up being necessary to help decide things one way or the other.

Any further thoughts yourself you could share?

Also @Drealmer: If you're town, I would really appreciate you to do a read where you ignore all the posts where you feel you're being attacked and misunderstood - just really, skip those posts completely and try to forget who's even involved in them - and give your insights on the entire rest of the game. Sit down for an hour or two, and give an overview with what you get out of it. There's been a lot of back-and-forth, and we'll greatly benefit from having those thoughts of yours (particularly if you end up being mislynched).

Exactly why are you yelling? All caps does not reinforce your point it just makes it look like you are throwing a hissy fit, I mean all I can picture in my head is you laying on your back kicking your hells into the ground over and over. Hyper presented you with a chance to answer some questions and reevaluate the situation and your answer is to scream at him, that's very mature. Be an adult and present your argument in a respectful manner instead of yelling.

Also, disappearing for three real life days and then stating it was not real life issues keeping you away is an issue. You trying to play it off as nothing is being disrespectful to everyone in this game including the host because it shows you are not invested in participating and only care about you.

You know as well as anyone else that any mafia game you commit to envolves active participation, not "meh I'll show and and post whenever I feel like it, everyone else can just wait on me".



@Hunter, thanks for the link. I didn't even think to check last game.