No flip on JMich. Yes, something fishy is afoot.

I agreed that both adalia and Leonard look suspicious at this point. I'd like to hear if anyone else has meaningful info to report before casting a vote. I'll need to check past posts to see what Ixam is referring. Not doing that from the phone.

Flub's game. Darko's role automatically received all flip info, no need to investigate, as seen in this post.

The wiki does indeed not outline it as a possibility, but my knowledge of the role comes mainly from flub's game and that obviously stuck as my interpretation of normal (the only reason I didn't claim it when I claimed Coroner last game was because I had no idea what dedo would flip or how I could spin that so had no role ready, claiming a need to investigate made more sense)

I would like to think of it as an attempt to steer attention in the right direction.

He still had 3 votes. Yeah, claiming Vanilla under those circumstances is not great but he didn't really know that. Did we vote or lynch mchack when he claimed Vanilla in RWarehall's game? No. Because he didn't know any better.
His defence sucked, and in hindsight that's probably because he was scum and being lynched seems much more serious when you're scum, but I find the reasons given for starting the wagon really bad.

To this point, no one has asked the most important question:

Does the fact that the game restarted well in advance of deadline prove that Hijack is not scum? That's mostly a joke, but...it was my first thought when I saw the game was up already.

Want to come back to this.

So, I'd hoped to do a full re-read but only got through I think 6 players last night. Got home late and pretty tired. Leonard and adalia were 2 of the first 3 I looked at. And I do want to talk a bit about Leonard later since, at least as of pre-dawn, he was still in my top 3.

But adalia is interesting. The hammer was a surprise in a few ways, but it was largely a collective shrug from me. Some similarities with Trent's hammer in Vitek's game, which I, uh, may have over-reacted to. But the flip opened my eyes and made it look possible adalia was desperate to get on a wagon that was inevitable and he knew which way it would fall.

On re-read, however, my suspicion of adalia went right back down. As a comparison (notes are at home, sorry), Leonard at one point says he will hammer to avoid no lynch, passes on hammer 28 hours before deadline. Whether anything else in his play is suspicious, at least to that extent it was consistent. Likewise, on re-read I thought adalia's hammer was at least consistent with the logic he'd laid out 100 posts prior.

So was adalia desperate to get on the wagon, or was he just inclined to avoid stalling?

So, barring investigation I was inclined to give adalia a pass for today. But I agree with HSL that that argument is odd. The funny thing about it from a certain perspective is that the mechanism adalia is arguing now (instant data) is different even than the mechanism adalia used when bluffing the role last game.

That strikes me as....a little hard to swallow. I mean, I know he bluffed certain things (like the "bonus details") but I don't get why he is now proposing yogs should have a flip waiting in his inbox. And moreover pushing yogs to claim on that basis. So I went from not->susp->not->susp.

I will say that I thought the end of yesterday actually looked pretty good for 4 people, only one of whom wasn't on the wagon. And one of those 4...was yogs. But I'm not lining up to kiss anything! I mean, I was paranoid enough to think yogs would make the original play + claim as scum, but... I'm not willing to be quite paranoid to think he's going to do all that AND bus a teammate. He does like a challenge, but...he's not stupid.

Want to contemplate.

Stopped at 585 and didn't refresh.

Obviously.


Of course you do. And I'm doing the same.


You conveniently forget that RW's game was mchack's very first game, while this was not P1na's first one. But not really surprised.

He still had 3 votes? You currently have two, will you (false)claim if I voted you now?

And of course you find the reasons really bad, you have to.



Contrary to the norm of expecting town to do it?

<--------------------

Oh, nm.

Lol. Good point there... XD

I really don't see why you have a problem with that...

Fair enough, we will agree to disagree.

No, but it's been at least a year since he's played (I don't count being NK'd before being able to join as a replacement, playing) as he hasn't played in the time I've been playing. I also didn't 'forget' as you put it, I pointed out mchack didn't know better. Why he didn't no better should have been clear (you could say obvious, but I won't :P).
Similarly, P1na didn't know that doing so would land him in more hot water (as he clearly expected it may have helped his case)

Me? No. As I make it we need 8 votes to lynch today, I would want to be at L-3 or L-2 before thinking of claiming. But I can see why someone else might do so (agent last game springs to mind)

No, I don't 'have to'. I find the reasons bad because I genuinely feel it was a really sucky lynch. We basically told a player he shouldn't bother playing because his playstyle is distracting and we don't like it, or at least that's what it looked like to me.
And I would say the same if he had flipped town, or if I were scum.

I would see a town being more likely to make a joke without thinking ahead about it, yes.

I felt bad momentarily because I thought you'd covered my question entirely and that I would have caught it on refresh. But good news! I don't feel bad. Though sure, I could be wrong.

It's dangerous to read into setting, but I'm a little skeptical that, if the game has a coroner (seems likely) and its yogs (possible to likely but not proven) that we should assume he's a mystic who just divines things.

Wouldn't a ...more traditional coroner who uses a scalpel in the morgue after the body arrives be at least more likely?

Likewise, doesn't your line of thinking also require us to assume that, last game, you false-claimed a role early D2 and didn't bother to research how it tends to work so that you could take advantage of it? I read up and thought about the implications, and I was in the dead thread, not relying on pulling a rabbit out of my ass each morning like you were, and presumably being somewhat prepared to handle cross-examination, which oddly town never applied.

I also still don't get why you're pushing yogs to claim straight out of the gate D2. I have a theory. Have you explained that and I missed it? Were you really thinking, in light of everything dusk/N1 that he's still the most likely and that we need him to claim urgently to continue scum hunting?

I wouldn't think so, personally. If you disagree I'm just curious for the rationale.


I should have just yelled at you before the game started. Ah well, can't argue with the D1 result, anyway.

I find that a...selective reading. The concern wasn't that P1na's playstyle was "distracting." I think that award goes elsewhere.

BTW, someone else can confirm/disprove this, but on my re-read I noted that P1na never actually said "town vanilla." P1na was one of those I re-read mostly in the off-chance there were any obvious connections.

I believe he just said "vanilla" and we just filled in the assumed blank. In a later post (no adalia search at work either) he even said that his role didn't say vanilla specifically and that he wanted to help "his team."

Someone want to pull that link up?

Basically, he claimed neutral survivor (inadvertently, it seems), then when pressed claimed vanilla, then very quietly kinda admitted "thug" and we never noticed. But unless I missed it, he never actually claimed _town_ vanilla. I think we just assumed that's what he was claiming. Kind of fascinating.

Though if there's a post that proves me wrong, by all means throw it at me. In any case, I don't think "playstyle" was the issue, and it's possible the pressure just got to him.

If you're speaking of my vote specifically, then sure, I did tell him it seemed from his description, at least, that it was a bad marriage.

I coached soccer and had a player tell me they didn't like running. So I moved her to goal and she was ecstatic, and pretty good as well. I had another player tell me after a month she didn't like running or kicking the ball or showing up to practice.

She was a distraction, sure, but ultimately that wasn't the real problem.

The joke wasn't the main problem. It was the L-6 Vanilla Town psuedo-softclaim. There might be decent reasons for a vanilla town to role-claim, but I can't think of any good reasons to claim so early.

Can you?

And in flub's setting a mystic who divined things made sense? This is mafia, when did anything ever make sense?

Who's to say a Coroner wouldn't automatically investigate any death and get the info immediately? It makes as much sense as having to wait a night to actively choose to investigate a player.
Just rereading the scum thread from last game, I'd hoped I could point out where I hummed and hawed over how to claim Coroner, but if I did it out loud I didn't do it in the chat, which does not help at all.

I had researched the Coroner role (there's not much to research) and as mentioned decided to claim that I needed to investigate (as it was more convenient for me to do so), while still thinking that was actually a variant of the role rather than it's usual working.

As for getting yogs to claim. Yogs has claimed a role, the role he was suspected of having has been all but confirmed by the lack of a flip for JMich. Under those circumstances I would expect him to report a result. Maybe he is PGO after all, but you've got to admit it's a hell of a coincidence, no?
(I don't think yog's is scum, he could still be a Janitor or something but I doubt it. I just think having a flip for JMich might be useful, you know)

I get what you are saying and where you are coming from, but if someone wants to play (and the girl in your example sounds like what she really didn't like was actually being on the soccer team) then I don't think it's up to us to decide the way they play is wrong and we don't want them here. We put up with HijacK after all. (sorry HijacK!)

As for the specifics of what P1na actually claimed, I'd have to do a reread on that and have no time right now as I'm off to bed. That's irrelevant to the other part of my argument as far as I'm concerned.

((I knew I should have refreshed before posting))

...

As opposed to Scum Vanilla?

...

Heh.

I'm curious what that "might find out more than he wants about the consequences of lurking" was all about.
Does HijacK have anything to share on that? Looks like it's going to be a long wait, and I suspect we'll have to hear all his partying stories first.



That's one way to put it. Or he saw all the signs (he even played the pity card), and realised that he had no real escape route at that point but to claim vanilla and hope for the best.


You want a hand getting there?


That's not what we told him, and you know it, you just can't admit it, because back-pedalling now will only make you look even worse.


I'm sure you would. In fact, I think that's exactly what you're doing.



Do you consider his reply to me (post #469) also part of the joke? Is that why you kept saying that it's a mistake to go for him? Or did you stop reading the thread after he made his initial joke?

Can I have your watch when you are dead?

btw, I'm all bent out of shape nobody has congratulated me on actually using an interrobang.

Where‽ I totally missed it.