I'm sorry. I was typing and reading drealmer at the same time.

My point was in regards to a Neutral Godfather specifically.

Why would a godfather be neutral and how would a neutral be a godfather.

Agreed. I had you as my scummiest (tense significant?), but at this point if I were to try and plug you in it would be on a (theoretical) Krypsyn-adalia-Ix or Krypsyn-Ix-______ team. I don't think you're "opposed" to yogs in the same way flub/wyrm/myself would be, but looking back at D2 you and Krypsyn were two of the strongest advocates for Leonard over adalia.

I don't think Krypsyn ever softened to the eventual order, and you came on after adalia's claim and after it was quite clear he was going down. If I were more confident adalia was scum (70%?) I'd probably jump right back on you, but ...I'm inclined to try and feel/think things out at this point.

And yesterday Krypsyn was willing to accuse me of being scummy for not preferring Trent first in sequence. Was that Krypsyn just knowing Trent was scum somehow and wanting the town cred, or was that a buddy defending a buddy?

Both? Hard to say.

Wow, lotta stuff there.

Slightly different formulation, but I'm also skeptical of the "neutral godfather theory." Yes, we do seem to be in "bastard mod" territory, but WTH would the neutral Trent-godfather's win condition be? He wins if he gets a political victory and unites the squads? If so, how does he do that?

I guess it's possible, but seems pretty convoluted. Likewise, if he could unite multiple teams into one force, town would really have to be stronger than it seems to be. Plus, if he had the ability to unite the squads to win, wouldn't he at least try to pull that out at the end rather than just hammering himself? I can't prove/disprove it, but...I think it unlikely.

I'm also really not likely to buy any 2v2v2 scenarios, along the lines of what dedo laid out - too hard to make the abilities fit into the know roles, plus the balance question. Jailer+strongman or jailer+janitor would outweigh Jailer+goon.

So...at least my first instinct is to work around 3v3v3 mirrored teams with jailer/goon/(xx). But there are two big questions (again assuming Trent was scum):

1) was adalia scum or not?
2) between yogs and Trent, which one bussed P1na?

Could have been Krypsyn I suppose, though I'm skeptical. He could have swapped to Leonard D1 pretty easily before the P1na-wagon started rolling.

Do you actually feel this question is pertinent to figuring out what is going on here at this point though?

...

Sez the guy who proposed "neutral godfather."

EBWOP
Oops, didn't see bler, should have refreshed.

I really wasn't proposing the idea of a neutral godfather, or didn't mean to. I simply mis-interpreted the wiki.

I agree, it doesn't seem likely to exist. I would be very curious what a neutral godfather would be trying to achieve and it baffled me at first, thanks everyone for clearing up it is not really sensible. Again, I really wasn't trying to pose the idea at all. I just saw the godfather on the wiki and interpreted the "anti-town" to mean possibliy neutral OR mafia aligned. I didn't think it meant scum-aligned absolutely. If someone with more experience were to say that they thought there was a neutral godfather that'd be one thing, but no, I just mis-interpreted the wiki and figure we should move on from that, really. I certainly didn't say anything about uniting teams either, that would be totally crazy!

Well, then I'm glad we had that productive conversation.

Yes, I think we should more focus on the teams. As I said, we need to try and determine who is most likely to be on whose team. You don't think it could be 4 teams of 2-scum each with 1 jailer and + complex janitor role that can muss with flips?

I do find that to be a powerful scum-vs.-town aventage BUT, even so, if those 2 power roles do exist for scum, whether on a 2 or 3 person scum team, the numbers would be 5v1v2 or 4v1v1v2, like I said before.

To me, in either of those cases, I think we should be trying to elminiate the scum team that still has 2 on it alive. I think the scenarios for me are pretty clear. Either Ix or Bookwyrm I find likely enough to be on the team that has 2 alive to be comfortable voting either of them today. Flubbucket too, though slightly less so (he's just seemed pretty aggressive/antagonistic/non-helpful most of the game.)

I suppose I could put my vote down but am in no rush (and well I voted for the national guard!), I think it would be good if Ix claimed. But, we are waiting for HijacK now maybe it seems too?

Same goes for you Mr. I'll let stagnation play out.

Day 1 I chose trent as my target, but got blocked.

Day 2 I tracked Bookwyrm. He visited nobody.

Day 3 I tracked Kryps. He visited cristi.

Day 4 I tracked Ix. He visited nobody.

Edit:

I meant night, not day. dunno why I put day.

The day starts with much talking, but less immediate accusations than the previous days. Everyone tries to be constructive and helpful ... everyone? Well, at least no one is openly agressive. But there is a feeling of urgency in the air. With over half the original participants dead, it is hard not to feel threatened. But perhaps things are not so grim as they look. A good portion of the dead people were corrupt, after all. So perhaps things are better than they feel. In any case, the voting tentatively starts.

***************************************************************
Vote count

Ixamyakxim 1: dedoporno

not voting: all others
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch
**************************************************************
Political votes:

Option #3 (martial law / national guard) 1: drealmer

This makes more sense to me than any of the theories presented so far. The one thing that gives me pause, is the name discrepancy between adalia/trent you mentioned earlier. It seems strange that one name changed and the other did not. Unless adalia lied about his name.

I can see how JMich or HSL might be a Janitor. But I keep thinking that one or both of these must be town. I have a hard time believing town has not had a single casualty this game. (I don’t believe adalia or trent were town.)

I did not receive any PM. If I was jailed, I was not aware of it.

Yes, that's fair. Two questions:

1) It would seem I was your top suspect yesterday after Trent, so why did you target Ix over me?

2) I'm still quite curious for you to explain D4. To recap:

-you argued fairly vehemently that the reason to lynch Trent over Ix was to get a "good flip"
-you claim to have predicted Trent messing with his own flip
-you did nothing to prevent Trent messing with his own flip

So were you lying when you said you predicted his flip? Or else how do you explain not making even simply arrangement to prevent him hammering himself?

Okay, SO, after pondering a while, I've realized that I really think there are only 3 possible scenarios (unless you start to get into the existence of neutral players, that is) at all. Here they are:

---7v3v3v3 game. Currently the numbers would have to be: 4townv2scumv2scum. If it were 5v2v1, town would have majority vote and have won, right? It could also be 4v2v1v1 or 4v2v2. I count out 4v3v1 because of the 3 dead mafia jailers. To me, if either of these is the right case, the 3 dead town I think are: JMich, HSL, and, who else? P1na or trentonlf I would guess? I don't know, but I'd like to hear what people think, as always.

---8v4v4. This come back into play as more likely than before (even though I was thinking it'd be a bit imbalanced for town, if this is the setup, clearly it's not TOO imbalanced for town with how things have gone, so, also with how the numbers stand now, this becomes one of the 3 remaining possibilities in my mind of the numbers-setup.) The problem with this is the 3 mafia-jailer flips (which makes me think of my nightmare-scenario which is the 3rd possibility I see which will come below.) This brings back in the possibility that 1 or more of those flips was false? Or that 2 jailers were at least on 1 team, if not both teams. Regardless of what where, this would mean that it is now 4v2v2 as well in this setup. Who are the 4 dead town then at that point is what I want to know? Again, I'd have to say it is likely JMich, HSL, P1na, and trentonlf? Who else? Mayyybe one of the jailers that flipped mafia was actually town and the flip was messed with?

The last scenario actually has 2 derivations that I think are a possibility and are a terrifying thought to me, but at this point I want to go ahead and share, as, I have the time, no one else seems to be chiming in with much, and, well, some of the scenarios I posed before aren't possible because of how the voting-numbers work out and I think these 3 I pose now are the only 3 possible number scenarios (I think anyway, I could be wrong I guess? and again, unless there are neutrals like mentioned):

---4townV4scumV4scumV4scum. BUT, if neutrals, it could also be 4townV4neutralV4scumV4scum, I suppose? But really? Could there only be 4 town in a game like this? If there are actually 4 town and 12 mafia/anti town in this game, that is really crazy to me, and if that is the case, it does give some reason behind why so many scum appear to be dying, but I don't find it to be likely. I am really terrified to think what the numbers could be at this point. Because regardless of how it would be in this scenario it means:

that there are a whole bunch of other possibilities of who is town and who is scum and who is on whose team and wtf is going on! What would the breakdown then be? 4v2v2 again? 2v2v2v2? 4v3v1? 3v4v1? 3v3v1v1? and on and on? If any of those or others are the cases here I am LOST again as I feel like there is no good way to tell who is who is who with at this point. Guidance would be helpful!

So, yes, I think the 7v3v3v3 is most likely the setup at this point too, with mirrored scum teams, and the remaining numbers most likely being 4v2v2 or mayyybe 4v1v2v1. Thoughts on this is what I am looking for more than anything else.

You still are, but I had to check if Ix was scum. In a multiple scum team scenario I never lost sight of the fact that scum may be on trent's wagon. The difference between trent and other potential scum is that I was certain trent was scum. And I don't really need to check much about you since the data at hand is against you.

Bler, for someone who's pretty smart at this game, you're awful at playing dumb. I know you too have thought of the fact that trent could fudge his own flip to incriminate himself.

Ah, but you see. Here's the problem, especially with your argument. I am certain someone would have stalled for him to hammer anyway, and even if you wouldn't have taken such a risk, it wouldn't be as impactful.

Trent hammering himself is the utmost proof one needs to know he was scum. He heavily criticized booky for hammering himself the previous game, thus he wouldn't make the play as town, it's just hypocritical. He knew what I was accusing him of, and he still jumped on himself. He barely contributed with anything for the past 2 days. And he jumped to hammer himself in an instant. Easily predictable, but this is actually in our favor, because this is utmost proof he was scum and was messing with us.

Your "you could have told us" piece is just a fool's argument. And I don't even believe you trust it yourself.

Whatever.

I absolutely didn't predict it, and even when he made the move, I kinda wondered if he was just effing with us to make heads explode. I agree he doesn't look like town but that's beside the point here. Am I the only one who didn't predict it?

Show of hands- who predicted it and who didn't?

Besides, you're glossing over the main point. Both Ix and Trent might be scum. You insisted that the key reason to hit Trent first was to get good info, and then you just let whatever info he had go down with him.

That smells foul to me.

As for your claim, the main problem I have isn't that you chose Ix over me, per se, but that if it's not Ix-Krypsyn-adalia, I'm pretty sure it's Ix-Krypsyn-you (post 1505).

And your claim is concerning to me, since it's built on pieces that won't be challenged if that's indeed the case. You would know that Krypsyn jailed cristi on that night, you would know Ix won't contradict you, and Wyrm has already claimed vanilla so makes a safe target. He can't change his claim without LAL.

I also think drealmer is right that we need to be cognizant of pairs still in play, and right now, you + Ix looks like the most likely pair.

Still, in case you aren't bluffing, I'll

Vote Ix.

That gives you one more night to investigate and have results that would be "independent."