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Thanks for all the wishes. It’s a chronic condition that likes to give me trouble from time to time, especially when the weather is grueling sultry.


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agentcarr16: It's actually the name that I got in my PM, make of that what you will.

[...]
Your last name wouldn't happen to be House? ;-P



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JMich: On the opposite. If person A says he believes B without explaining why, that means you get to evaluate person A's play to see whether you should accept it or not. And you also get a second possible flip to get extra info.

Same thing holds true with a cop hinting that someone is town, without revealing how he knows it, or a tracker hinting, or anyone else that has information they don't feel comfortable sharing yet. So ask yourself, what information could said person have that allows him to see what I'm missing?
emphasis added.

So, should we be asking ourselves what information agentcarr16, BlueMooner, and you have?



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yogsloth: [...]

And, of course, it's always possible it blows up in my face and gets me killed or worse.

[...]
emphasis added.

Curious what you mean by that.



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Krypsyn: I made a comment to agentcarr16? Oh, because of the pi thing? No... I was indicating we were talking in circles (2pi = 360 radians) as usual for Day 1, hence the Go and Stand references in the videos. Sorry you didn't like the songs though, I rather like them. ;)

[...]
I guess I read too much, or too little, into those links.

And I said it was painful to watch, not to listen to, though I liked the ones you posted in the sign-up thread much more.



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RWarehall: In mafia games (other than GoG), the posting of a full sample PM is often standard. Pretty much for the reasons you've already speculated on. In terms of scum advantage, I'd rather town lynches them for the lies themselves instead of getting the secret handshake wrong.

And for the record, the role of "God" is completely non-standard. It merely reflects the inflated ego of your moderator...
I've not played mafia outside of GOG. Does this standard apply only to the Town PM?



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Sage103082: I think having a dirty mind and the internet has corrupted me beyond repair.
It has?



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BlueMooner: [...]

Emm... did you miss my own quotation marks? I didn't say Yog proved he was town, I said his post was him "proving" he was town, as in, that's what he was trying to do, hence my quotation marks. The same marks you used when saying Yog "proved" nothing. And I obviously saw the OP where the GM talked about paraphrasing PMs, since I referenced that very thing when I said "him paraphrasing what the GM sent him". Did you really not understand any of that??

I mean no offense when I ask this. Is English your first language?
No, English is not my mother tongue, but I understood you just fine. Not sure if you didn't understand me, or if you're acting as if you didn't.

The argument I made is not against your interpretation of his actions, but against the source material you claim he's basing them on.

My point is that yogsloth is not necessarily paraphrasing his PM. Since the full Town PM template is in the OP, he (and everyone else) can very easily paraphrase that, even if he has received a very different PM. In other words, the fact that he's paraphrasing does not mean that he actually received a Town PM.


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BlueMooner: [...]

Thoughts?
A town player is a player that can't be certain of anyone's alignment but their own, particularly on D1. Everything anyone else says may or may not be true. may or may not be in town's interest. Without some kind of proof, they just can't be certain.
A scum player may be pushing an agenda against a town player or in favour of a scum-buddy, but a town player may find that someone else's behaviour is scummy and react on it. Some players push more, some push less.

One tries to piece things together by applying logic and watching out, so what flubbucket said.
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BlueMooner: Yes, everybody's dissecting Yog's statement, but Trent seemed to keep pushing for us to share WHY we think it's town+, to give details, even though we said doing so might... interfere.
That's kind of his thing. Not saying he is Town just because of that but that's what he usually does when something like this happens on day 1. I don't share Trent's concern as much but people saying they may know what Yog is doing and it may be pro town means practically nothing at this point. "May know" and "know for a fact" are so far apart from each other in this game that you wouldn't even believe it. If you are Yog's scumbuddy it's only natural to try and paint his actions in a better light. If you are Town you may be vouching for a scum without even knowing it just because you picked up something and read it in a wrong way because of whatever reason (this works both way - last game I was the driving force behind the execution of my own bodyguard because a bunch of circumstances aligned in a way that made things look far worse then they should have). You may be scum who backs up a townie that may end being lynched just to be able to say "See? I told you so, therefore it's more likely I'm Town myself". Last but not least you may actually be right and Town but you can't really expect us to take only your word for it without additional confirmation.
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HypersomniacLive: I’m a bit disappointed in yogsloth – he promised to post multi-volume essays three times a day, yet there’s none.
...some people just want to watch the whole world burn...

As for the "aha, ya fools, I know the secret and ya don't but I won't share!". I don't care much for it. The game is dynamic, and given the right parameters you can easily trace back such statements if anything goes wrong, or goes too well. There are a plethora of possibilities and such statements make it so that they are possible.

Also, I know the secret of immortality, but I'm not saying anything yet.

Oh, and unvote JMich. T'was merely RVS.

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yogsloth: Are you not entertained?
Eh, it's Labor Day weekend so I'll be indulgent and say yes.
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HypersomniacLive: ........<bud nip>............

so what flubbucket said.
The what now??
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HypersomniacLive: So, should we be asking ourselves what information agentcarr16, BlueMooner, and you have?
Haven't you already done that? Haven't you done that with everyone making a comment in all the games so far?

Start with yog's comment. Why would his first post be that? Then check with the reactions.
I'm reading back through the thread, and I'm picking up on a few little things that I missed first time around.

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BlueMooner: Understood. But I assume after all these games that people have figured out some standard ways to detect mafia, so I'm waiting for some of you vets to show these tricks so I can learn.

Maybe I'm just overexcited at my first game and want something to HAPPEN already.
BlueMooner, you might think that there are standard tricks for detecting mafia, but you immediately run into the “Levels of Thinking” problem.
If I figure out something that is a sure-fire scum tell, then I will never make that mistake, so it's no longer sure-fire. Also, if I have to come out about my method, then all other scum will try to stop making that mistake.
Really, it's one of the great things about that game, that its always new and always moving to a new level.
And ya, it's really slow during the first Day. I feel your pain.

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adaliabooks: but then again, if by talking about it I spoil it then it's probably just as bad a play as it seems on the surface.
You make a good point there...

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Krypsyn: I can; scum.
Sorry, lol, but that semi-colon caught my eye this time. It should be a colon.

BTW, I don't recall Krypsyn ever indicating quite as strongly that he dislikes role-talk on Day 1. Interesting.
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agentcarr16: I

BTW, I don't recall Krypsyn ever indicating quite as strongly that he dislikes role-talk on Day 1. Interesting.
Krypsyn has noted on several occasions he does not like role talk on Day 1, probabley does not like it as much as I do. He is just less vehement about it.
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flubbucket: ...as well as lack of Vote From Krypsyn
Agreed, that is really scummy. Krypsyn is usually blathering on and on about always liking to have his vote on someone. Now, here he is, not voting for anyone at all. The last time he did that, he was scum, iirc. Classic fence-sitting.

Let me add a little bit more pressure to him, see what he does.
Vote: Krypsyn
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trentonlf: He is just less vehement about it.
Yeah, I figured that much ;)
That's why it was interesting that he came out so strongly this time.


Extensive Reasoning Behind my Vote for Lifthrasil

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dedoporno: Not even try to scumhunt a bit before going for the very first thing that has been presented on a silver platter not even by mistake? Isn't that a bit lazy?
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Lifthrasil: Not really. It wouldn't be good play to ignore such a blatant offering. I'm not sure we should lynch Yog yet, but until I see a good defense from him and an explanation for such a behaviour, he is our best choice. Also, what do you mean by 'try to scumhunt'? ... What do you think talking about apparent anti-town statements and voting for the currently most suspicious player is? That is scum-hunting! Or what do you propose? How would you scum-hunt, if not by reacting to scummy play and by voting?
This is scummy.

Alright, let's take this logically.

Argument #1

1. Fact – Lynching yogsloth immediately will end Day 1 before the deadline
2. Fact – Ending Day 1 before the deadline will stop discussion prematurely
3. Fact – Stopping discussion prematurely stops the flow of information prematurely
4. Fact – Stopping the flow of information prematurely is bad for Town.
Therefore...
10. Conclusion – Lynching yogsloth immediately is bad for Town

This is a general kind of argument that I'm directing at everyone. This is my view of lynching quickly.
(Sorry, RWarehall, but I'm afraid your hints can't penetrate my thick skull :)


Argument #2

1. Fact – Lifthrasil said “I'm not sure we should lynch Yog yet...”

2A. Assumption – Lifthrasil meant the emphasis to be “I'm not sure we should lynch Yog yet...”
i.e. We must/will/have to lynch Yog. I don't know if we should do it now.
3A. Conclusion – Lifthrasil is sure that yogsloth is scum or neutral

4A. Fact – Town should always be scumhunting.
5A. Conclusion – If we shouldn't lynch Yog immediately, we should be scumhunting in the mean time.

6A. Fact – Lifthrasil said “...talking about apparent anti-town statements and voting for the currently most suspicious player ... is scum-hunting...”
7A. Conclusion – Lifthrasil is scumhunting Yog. (Scumhunting at Yog, Scumhunting for Yog, *shrug* )
8A. Conclusion – Lifthrasil is scumhunting someone who he knows is scum or neutral.
9A. Conclusion – Lifthrasil is not helping Town. He should be hunting for other scum.
10A. Fact – Not helping Town is scummy.
11A. Conclusion #1– Lifthrasil is scummy.

2B. Assumption – Lifthrasil mean the emphasis to be “I'm not sure we should lynch Yog yet...”
i.e. I don't know if yogsloth is scum
3B. Fact – Lifthrasil said “...whether Yogs is town or scum, he is lying about his role. And I am a firm believer in lynch all liars. ”
4B. Conclusion – Lifthrasil will lynch Town if Town lies.
5B. Fact – Deliberately lynching Town is scummy.
6B. Conclusion #2 – Lifthrasil is scummy. (though less scummy than in Conclusion #1)


I've tried to keep Lifthrasil's words in context. If anyone feels that I have twisted something he said, please tell me.

However, from what Lifthrasil has said and from what he has done, I conclude that he is acting scummy.

That is why my vote is on Lifthrasil. If he takes the time to respond to my question, I might back off. But as it is now, I can't/won't.
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Krypsyn: I'll take it under advisement.
Hmmmmmm

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RWarehall: the role of "God" is completely non-standard
Can I... be a god slayer? Always wanted to be one. Sounds bad ass with the girls.

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yogsloth: Do note, however, that most rookie mistakes are forgiven
What? Since when? I recall during flub's ranch game being all over cristi and ddickinson for making extremely questionable rookie plays. I don't quite think you're sincere here.

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flubbucket: I am so stoked I didn't make the mistake of editing the post!! (long drive and my alcohol level is dangerously low)
I wish one day to have a drink with flub.

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adaliabooks: And if you are saying you are genuinely claiming Town Cop then you are both stupid and most likely dead.
lol This made me chuckle. Mostly because it was something I expected booksie-wooksie to say.

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mchack: cookies
A few weeks I would have taken you on that, but I'm doing gym now... and I will take your offer as blunt, rascal, and quite bold sabotage! ... I have my eyes on you.
Whew. Back home.

Night 2 was awesome, hard to say whether it was better or just as good as Night 1, but at least it was different (I did worry it might just be the same thing twice and it might be boring the second night), for anyone who cares.

I've been reading while I was away so I'm all up to date.

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trentonlf: Krypsyn has noted on several occasions he does not like role talk on Day 1, probabley does not like it as much as I do. He is just less vehement about it.
I get the feeling Krypsyn (somewhat like JMich, but probably even less usefully) just doesn't like talking about anything day 1... or day 1 in general. ;)

I'm getting a picture of where everyone is at this game, but nothing so far has made me sit up and take notice yet, so I'm going to stick with yogs, as he seems to be the spark that has/will set us off today.

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yogsloth: I do have a plan, but of course, it's incomplete and highly dependent on what happens next. I'm being quite flexible.
So (I say this a lot too, in fact, I have to stop myself from saying it more... not sure it says much about yogs that he does it too, other then we perhaps share a mental instability), this plan you have. Will we see it come to fruition day 1? Can you tell us any more about it? Is there a reason we shouldn't just lynch you, then JMich, agentcarr16 and BlueMooner as you all apparently think the town cop claiming in the first post of the game is actually a valid play of some sort? (that one was a joke, mostly. I wouldn't mind an answer to it)

It stands to reason that if yogs is lying there might be one person who would know that, that person being the real town cop if we have one. But obviously we don't want them to claim as then we risk losing our cop (but assuming under those circumstances yogs would be scum that's not a bad trade, which is why I don't think the situation is as simple as that; scum yogs would not be so stupid to throw his life away just to remove the town cop).
It's also possible that he's not lying and there's another town cop out there (flub's game had two alignment cops, the last game had three town cops of various sorts, two of the same type) who might suspect he is lying but doesn't want to out themselves in case yogs isn't lying and there are two cops, which would then mean scum would know who both town cops would be.
Of course that's all just speculation, and the simplest solution is still that yog's is town telling the truth to some unfathomable gain or scum lying as part of some kind of trap, and right now both seem equally possible.


Pre Post Edit: Wow, just seen agent's post on Lift... I... Words can't describe the amount of really awfully bad twisting of words and intent going on there...
Will read it again to see if it comes off any better and post my thoughts.
I'm curious.

Bump for adaliabooks.
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adaliabooks: Pre Post Edit: Wow, just seen agent's post on Lift... I... Words can't describe the amount of really awfully bad twisting of words and intent going on there...
I rather liked it. Waiting to see Lifthrasil's response, however, before I critique it one way or the other (if at all).
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adaliabooks: Will we see it come to fruition day 1? Can you tell us any more about it? Is there a reason we shouldn't just lynch you, then JMich, agentcarr16 and BlueMooner as you all apparently think the town cop claiming in the first post of the game is actually a valid play of some sort? (that one was a joke, mostly. I wouldn't mind an answer to it)
I can't believe I'm doing it, but I will answer these questions for yog.
1) Hopefully not.
2) No.
3) 4 people seem to have an inkling of what's going on, and unless you think all 4 of us are scum, then at least one townie has an inkling of what yog is trying to do.
3a) I don't actually think it's a valid play, or at least not one I would do, but I can understand where yog's coming from.

And with that post, I'm going to check if I somehow ended up in Bizarro World...
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adaliabooks: Pre Post Edit: Wow, just seen agent's post on Lift... I... Words can't describe the amount of really awfully bad twisting of words and intent going on there...
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Krypsyn: I rather liked it. Waiting to see Lifthrasil's response, however, before I critique it one way or the other (if at all).
Glad that someone liked it. I'm highly sensitive to criticism ;)