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gooberking: I've had my issues with DRM stuff, but I don't know how often it's been because something wasn't labeled properly and more by the fact that it existed.

I was surprised to see how aggressively it was integrated into the e-book scene from the beginning. I completely stopped buying e-books after finding out what a PITA it was to deal with even though I would typically prefer to get books that way.
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omega64: What kind of DRM do e-books have?
I've read about Amazon being able to remove your purchased books remotely.
Most ebook sellers - Baen's one of the few exceptions - use DRM to prevent you from reading their ebooks on another company's ereader. So in order to read books from B&N you have to buy a B&N reader, to read books from Amazon you have to buy an Amazon reader. If your account gets blocked you may or may not lose access to your ebooks. If you want to get a better reader from another company touch luck.

It seriously limits competition in the ebook market. That's been mitigated somewhat by Android phones having multiple store apps, but it's still hugely irritating not to have your library all in one place.

Companies can remove purchased books remotely or change book content as they please. They typically don't because why would they? But when they do have a good reason they do it.
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omega64: What kind of DRM do e-books have?
I've read about Amazon being able to remove your purchased books remotely.
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Gilozard: Most ebook sellers - Baen's one of the few exceptions - use DRM to prevent you from reading their ebooks on another company's ereader. So in order to read books from B&N you have to buy a B&N reader, to read books from Amazon you have to buy an Amazon reader. If your account gets blocked you may or may not lose access to your ebooks. If you want to get a better reader from another company touch luck.

It seriously limits competition in the ebook market. That's been mitigated somewhat by Android phones having multiple store apps, but it's still hugely irritating not to have your library all in one place.

Companies can remove purchased books remotely or change book content as they please. They typically don't because why would they? But when they do have a good reason they do it.
At least now I have a clear reason never to get into ebooks.
Post edited March 17, 2016 by omega64
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Phaedrus567: My only potential concession has been using Steam recently to support Linux when GOG doesn't provide one.
???!!!???
https://www.gog.com/games?system=lin_mint,lin_ubuntu&sort=bestselling&page=1
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Phaedrus567: My only potential concession has been using Steam recently to support Linux when GOG doesn't provide one.
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ValamirCleaver: ???!!!???
https://www.gog.com/games?system=lin_mint,lin_ubuntu&sort=bestselling&page=1
I think he may refer to all those games who have Linux support on Steam, but not here on gOg. Dying Light, for example, have Linux version on Steam, but not here.
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Gilozard: Most ebook sellers - Baen's one of the few exceptions - use DRM to prevent you from reading their ebooks on another company's ereader. So in order to read books from B&N you have to buy a B&N reader, to read books from Amazon you have to buy an Amazon reader. If your account gets blocked you may or may not lose access to your ebooks. If you want to get a better reader from another company touch luck.

It seriously limits competition in the ebook market. That's been mitigated somewhat by Android phones having multiple store apps, but it's still hugely irritating not to have your library all in one place.

Companies can remove purchased books remotely or change book content as they please. They typically don't because why would they? But when they do have a good reason they do it.
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omega64: At least now I have a clear reason never to get into ebooks.
When I was looking at it there was stuff that would get locked to a store (say B&N) but there were stores that let you buy books at a more generic level and load them onto generic devices. To do that you HAD to create an account with Adobe and their software would be required to monitor and authorize each install. There were limits to the number of devices you could have. It was a PITA if there ever was one.

That was a few years ago so stuff might have gotten vendor locked a lot more since then. E-books have a lot of the same issues music does with how much DRM gets in the way of expected usability. It's interesting that music DRM buckled under the problems it was creating where as books seem to be getting away with it a lot more successfully.
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Gilozard: Most ebook sellers - Baen's one of the few exceptions - use DRM to prevent you from reading their ebooks on another company's ereader. So in order to read books from B&N you have to buy a B&N reader, to read books from Amazon you have to buy an Amazon reader. If your account gets blocked you may or may not lose access to your ebooks. If you want to get a better reader from another company touch luck.

It seriously limits competition in the ebook market. That's been mitigated somewhat by Android phones having multiple store apps, but it's still hugely irritating not to have your library all in one place.

Companies can remove purchased books remotely or change book content as they please. They typically don't because why would they? But when they do have a good reason they do it.
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omega64: At least now I have a clear reason never to get into ebooks.
Ebooks are great.

DRM-removal software is free, easy and effective. Look up Calibre (library management software, like a virtual bookshelf) and Apprentice Alf's plugins (DRM-removal). I buy all kinds of ebooks and read them wherever using that software.

There's a lot of ebooks available DRM-free, especially public domain ones. Unless you really want a physical copy there's no reason to pay for a classic book anymore, just check out Project Gutenberg.
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omega64: At least now I have a clear reason never to get into ebooks.
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gooberking: When I was looking at it there was stuff that would get locked to a store (say B&N) but there were stores that let you buy books at a more generic level and load them onto generic devices. To do that you HAD to create an account with Adobe and their software would be required to monitor and authorize each install. There were limits to the number of devices you could have. It was a PITA if there ever was one.

That was a few years ago so stuff might have gotten vendor locked a lot more since then. E-books have a lot of the same issues music does with how much DRM gets in the way of expected usability. It's interesting that music DRM buckled under the problems it was creating where as books seem to be getting away with it a lot more successfully.
Fewer people have to interact with ebook DRM. DRM and internet technology is better now, we can have stable online accounts, internet access most places we go, and basically every ebook seller is vertically integrated enough to offer most books plus a decent reader. It's not the fragmented market that music was. Most people just buy a reader from one store and then buy their books there.

Plus, there are fewer people who read a lot than who listen to music a lot. Niche market = less sway.
Post edited March 17, 2016 by Gilozard
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amok: I think he may refer to all those games who have Linux support on Steam, but not here on gOg. Dying Light, for example, have Linux version on Steam, but not here.
Now that you've explained it that way the previous response makes more sense. Wouldn't that be an issue of the publisher not providing a Linux port?
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Gilozard: DRM-removal software is free, easy and effective. Look up Calibre (library management software, like a virtual bookshelf) and Apprentice Alf's plugins (DRM-removal). I buy all kinds of ebooks and read them wherever using that software.
The few times I needed it, Calibre worked rather well. I also like the fact that it is capable of conversion to PDF.
Well, the EFF doesn't want to hear it, as I'm not an American, so I'll just tell you guys.

Back in 2008, I was waiting impatiently for Spore to come out. While I was afraid that the changes made to the game since EA stepped in and started dictating things about a year before release would be for the worse, I still had hopes that enough of Will Wright's original stuff was still in there to make it a good game (I was wrong, but that's another, much longer post).

On release day, I went to an electronics store during my lunch break, and bought a copy of Spore Galactic Edition, the bigger more expensive release with bonus "Making Of" DVD, artbook, and everything.

When I got home from work that day, I eagerly installed the game, only to find that I couldn't activate it. After lots of posts on the EA Spore forum by lots of people having the same problem, it turned out that the Galactic Edition has its own range of serial keys, and EA, well... They forgot to add that serial range to the activation servers.

In short, everyone who shelled out for the more expensive version of the game was rewarded with not being able to play their game for a while (I don't remember how long it took EA to correct their mistake), all due to DRM.
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mechmouse: Would daughter not being able to play TombRaider while I play CIV5 count as a horror story?
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amok: Steam? And the games are on one account? then no, it is in fact you who are in breach here.

From the original post "Where the DRM's existence and extent were not disclosed". What you describe is against the TOS, and it is quite clear in this regard.
A flawed counter arguement.

Firstly it assumes Steam is optional, it is not. For 80% of major games it is the DRM.
Secondly its restrictions are not disclosed at point of sale (unless you've bought directly from Steam)
Thirdly, VALVe can and have dramatically changed their SSA post purchase. When I first used Steam, concurrent use of a single library with another trusted party was permited
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omega64: At least now I have a clear reason never to get into ebooks.
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Gilozard: Ebooks are great.

DRM-removal software is free, easy and effective. Look up Calibre (library management software, like a virtual bookshelf) and Apprentice Alf's plugins (DRM-removal). I buy all kinds of ebooks and read them wherever using that software.

There's a lot of ebooks available DRM-free, especially public domain ones. Unless you really want a physical copy there's no reason to pay for a classic book anymore, just check out Project Gutenberg.
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gooberking:
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Gilozard:
Even if true why would I bother with drm removal software?
I'm not going to pay for it in the first place if they put those kinds of restrictions on me.
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amok: Steam? And the games are on one account? then no, it is in fact you who are in breach here.

From the original post "Where the DRM's existence and extent were not disclosed". What you describe is against the TOS, and it is quite clear in this regard.
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mechmouse: A flawed counter arguement.

Firstly it assumes Steam is optional, it is not. For 80% of major games it is the DRM.
Secondly its restrictions are not disclosed at point of sale (unless you've bought directly from Steam)
Thirdly, VALVe can and have dramatically changed their SSA post purchase. When I first used Steam, concurrent use of a single library with another trusted party was permited
The first point do not matter, DRM and monopoliesbarebtwo different issues.
Second point, Steam asks you if you have read the and accepted the TOS, it is your own fault if you click buy without actually reading it.
The third you will need to provide some evidence for, as long as I remember an account have always been personal.
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omega64: I'm not going to pay for it in the first place if they put those kinds of restrictions on me.
Writers' exposure and in some cases their livelihoods depend on making it up the store bestseller list. This means they're forced to strongly encourage you to buy from the DRMed store and then remove the DRM, even though they might be personally opposed to DRM and would otherwise encourage you to vote with your wallet and boycott defective-by-design electronic products.
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mechmouse: A flawed counter arguement.

Firstly it assumes Steam is optional, it is not. For 80% of major games it is the DRM.
Secondly its restrictions are not disclosed at point of sale (unless you've bought directly from Steam)
Thirdly, VALVe can and have dramatically changed their SSA post purchase. When I first used Steam, concurrent use of a single library with another trusted party was permited
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amok: The first point do not matter, DRM and monopoliesbarebtwo different issues.
Second point, Steam asks you if you have read the and accepted the TOS, it is your own fault if you click buy without actually reading it.
The third you will need to provide some evidence for, as long as I remember an account have always been personal.
1) Steams monopoly is not the point in question. Its their DRM solution that stops game A being used if Game B is being played.
2) If I buy a Steam linked game on physical media or via a key direct from publisher you do not get to read or a agree to Steams Subscriber agreement before hand. At best you get Steam Subscription required, with no details to what that entails. I recently purchased Rise of the Tomb Raider physical disc from Square-Enix store because there was no mention what so ever about needing Steam. I later cancelled that purchase when I found out in-spite having no warning on their Store that the game would require Steam, it did. Most online stores selling Physical PC games do not state whether they require Steam.
3)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040607060354/http://steampowered.com/index.php?area=subscriber_agreement

You are solely responsible for all activity on your Account and for the security of your computer system. You agree not to reveal your password to other users. If you permit others to use your Account, you are responsible for their illegal or improper use by such persons. Your Account and Subscription(s) are subject to the Agreement. You may not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise share or transfer your Account.
Post edited March 18, 2016 by mechmouse
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amok: The first point do not matter, DRM and monopoliesbarebtwo different issues.
Second point, Steam asks you if you have read the and accepted the TOS, it is your own fault if you click buy without actually reading it.
The third you will need to provide some evidence for, as long as I remember an account have always been personal.
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mechmouse: 1) Steams monopoly is not the point in question. Its their DRM solution that stops game A being used if Game B is being played.
2) If I buy a Steam linked game on physical media or via a key direct from publisher you do not get to read or a agree to Steams Subscriber agreement before hand. At best you get Steam Subscription required, with no details to what that entails. I recently purchased Rise of the Tomb Raider physical disc from Square-Enix store because there was no mention what so ever about needing Steam. I later cancelled that purchase when I found out in-spite having no warning on their Store that the game would require Steam, it did. Most online stores selling Physical PC games do not state whether they require Steam.
3)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040607060354/http://steampowered.com/index.php?area=subscriber_agreement

You are solely responsible for all activity on your Account and for the security of your computer system. You agree not to reveal your password to other users. If you permit others to use your Account, you are responsible for their illegal or improper use by such persons. Your Account and Subscription(s) are subject to the Agreement. You may not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise share or transfer your Account.
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mechmouse:
1) then it is not a separate point, and it is clearly stated on the TOS
2) Again, if it is marked that a Steam m agreement/account is needed then it is up to you to find out what it means. If this was not said at all, then you have a case.
3) sorry, I was not clear. I know this is the case today, what I am questioning is if this have not always been the case. You could never share an account before either. I questioned your statement that you could play one game one one account and your daughter a different game at the same time, and this was changed with the new TOS. I do not think this is correct, And would need to see some evidence to believe so.
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amok: 1) then it is not a separate point, and it is clearly stated on the TOS
2) Again, if it is marked that a Steam m agreement/account is needed then it is up to you to find out what it means. If this was not said at all, then you have a case.
3) sorry, I was not clear. I know this is the case today, what I am questioning is if this have not always been the case. You could never share an account before either. I questioned your statement that you could play one game one one account and your daughter a different game at the same time, and this was changed with the new TOS. I do not think this is correct, And would need to see some evidence to believe so.
3) I can't prove this, because there is no way to show you the pre 2008 version of Steam running. All I can hope is someone else with a 10Year + Steam account can remember it.

2) As mentioned, its not always disclosed at point of purchase. Even on physical packaging its small print, with no explanation.

1) Its still DRM causing issue, regardless if the TOS of said DRM supplier states the issue . 1 product effectively blocking an entirely different product, simple due to the choice of DRM.