Settings: Average shard, three other expert AI (random), minimal water.

How would you go about winning this while staying as strict to being good as possible with a wizard start? Would it be just as competitive as someone who went wizard + three barbarians then switched to good ?

3 swordsmen + sanctuary
heal them, give them medals.
4th trooper - crossbowman, sorcery +wizardry. Buff him, replenish ammo.
On 10th level - take commander dual, hire crossbowmen, build illusionists guild, take sleeps. Your crossbowmen would be able to shoot everyone one by one.

Yeah but that doesn't happen till what.. turn 60? If you went the 3 barb route as evil you would have your first ring cleared around turn 10-15 depending. So your economy is already ahead as pure evil compared to good. Or are you trying to say that with that build you can catch up and then beat a typical 'evil' opening?

When do you transition to get your second hero? Are you negotiating with settlements?

Swordsman +3 medals of defender = almost immunity to T1 units.
Swordsmen have advantage over barbarians in clearing guards with ranged damage - brigands, free settlements and halflings.
Mage with swordsmen would be able to clear second ring earlier - swordsmen don't mind attack of 3+ militiamen in one round, unlike barbs.
Also swordsmen have advantage in clearing undead sites - you can clear them in a row without casualties and much damage taken.
When mage would become commander dual - he could gift these veteran swordsmen to third hero. While barbs usually die anyway.

If you're going swords while being alignment strict , and we'll forgive taking neutral settlements by force, you're still going to have to wait for the altar + sanctuary because the upkeep alone will kill you if you have to wait to heal. So you're spending up to turn 50 doing absolutely nothing. I am pretty sure evil players can start taking their second ring by then if not earlier.

In order for swordsmen to actually be worth it you need some kind of healing (otherwise upkeep + attrition will kill you) which means getting the healing spell so you have to now build five buildings get enough gold to get those buildings and get 3 swordsmen furthermore you need to get enough gold to ward off the upkeep. So you're sitting there for pretty much 40-50 turns depending on your start.

If the area around you is swampy then you pretty much will not have any income until you start clearing the second ring.

So correct me if I am wrong but I do not see being strict on good as viable at all compared to evil/neutral-> good which means there is only one real opening for wizard which is hero + 3 barbs. Or if you get super lucky you could just negotiate your way around the map which sort of pays itself off since you don't have to keep replacing barbs.

Look at the link below if you want to see a Wiz start I did.
With the exception that I started with Tiny Shard and 1vs1 this was a tough start. 3 Provinces had 3/1 Barb/Shaman gaurds yet I still took my first ring by turn 25 being good. I even gave a turn by turn of what I did with some screen shots included.


http://www.gog.com/forum/eador_series/wizard_as_first_hero_help_expert_difficulty/post5

I'll accept that as an answer because it is the best you can get. I was hoping for something more universal that accounts for the iron increase event and also starting off in a pure swamp environment - meaning you will never get 27 gold per turn.

The triple barbarian start is simply more flexible.

I really do not like builds that leave me gold starved and unable to push my economy without having certain things existing . I read that thread awhile back, but the problem I see with that thread is that the advice isn't specific enough - we're talking about being strict on good meaning no attacking neutrals that will give you minuses to karma. Furthermore, as I'd like to point out that if your environment is poor in terms of money generation (aka starting in a swamp area) you will be in the red at best whcih means you have zero room for error.

You can't exactly ask your opponent(s) for a restart under most cases.

The three barb start seems to me to be the most flexible even if you have to spend 30 every now and then to replace casualties - I wanted something similar with 'Good' but swordsmen seem to be the only answer which, while disappointing, is a valid solution.

It takes a while to build up to a 27 gold income and a lot of times you will probably have to get a 2nd ring province before you do. OR get lots of loot and build Mills/Sawmill/Mines to increase income.

The reason you take 3 swordies quite often (although I sometimes only take 2 until I get healer slot) is it helps you win more fights so you get the loot quicker or expand faster without having to rest or rehire.

Truthfully though if I have nothing but swamps to start and in opening ring I will usually restart. Sadly swamps usually have Goblins quite often and they are so damn corrupt.

Just saw your edit now.

The reason that "Good" does not have a real way to start like that is because the only reason the Barbs or Briggs are so cheap is that they die quite easily and get obsolete so damn fast. Swordsmen on the other hand you can keep forever and they just get insanely good. My swordies, with healer support, usually end up taking on T3 guys quite safely without hero much hero support, meaning no webbing etc which barbs really need.

And not attacking neutrals is the stupidest thing in the world. The only way you wouldn't attack them is if you had Scout with Diplomacy OR if they had a resource, otherwise it's just stupidly insane after all you need that exp. Not to mention you don't lose Karma for attacking "Neutrals" as they are just that in alignment I believe.

Swordsmen can be on the same tier of uselessness as barbarians depending on the circumstances because their hit point pool is just as small. Also, keep in mind that our discussion has different nuances depending on which hero you choose first - friendly reminder that's all. If I am playing a summon heavy build for example, a swordsman is pretty much the equivalent to a militia in certain cases. In order to determine the worth of the swordsman you have to look at how much gold you're losing to upkeep and what you're gaining from it; it might be cheaper to just suicide barbs.

I am pretty sure you do lose karma for taking settlements that aren't barbarian/goblin etc. and the xp loss isn't that big unless you decide to negotiate everything.


Lastly, there are rarely restarts in multiplayer (though depending on your opponent(s) you may be allowed some) and at least in my group if it is pure swamps well then I will probably have to deal with it. I would prefer not to have my strategy rely on luck if at all possible and a swordsman start is asking that (heavy in plains and no iron increase event near start).

I often start as Wiz and always take swordsmen, the upkeep is no problem if you can keep clearing out sites for the loot. You just need to make sure not to let one take too much damage or you have to stop and heal. Fatigue is very helpful in that regard. Stuff to buy from the phat loots is a library for fatigue and of course the healer unit.
And no, there really is no reason not to attack free settlements. They are pretty much free kills once you have a healer, even the ones with 15 enemies. Losing karma is not a big deal, I use evil stuff very often, I still play the campaign as the Pure.

There are a few reasons I can think of, the first is a flavor reason because we're playing strict 'good' hence the title. Secondly, when it comes to the third or fourth ring you're going to have to invest a lot in order to take a free settlement and you may lose a unit such as a healer or more - in other words, it's not exactly a free kill and considering the upkeep you pay to and from it might be better just to buy the thing.

Read your own advice and read what I actually wanted out of this thread; I wanted a strategy that is more or less fail proof like the triple barbarian start which is, thus far, the safest and rng free route. It's all about whether or not there are viable alternatives to that given the worst (yet reasonable) starting positions like all swamps and expecting not to reload.

Ok heres the thing. You say you want to be pure "good" but you must realize that Barbs are "Unscrupulous" Hence NOT good or even Neutral. This is one reason they are so cheap and why Briggs are even cheaper.

As for a strategy that is "Fail Proof" the only one that ever comes to mind is don't try because then you will never fail lol.

Also you do not always need to start off with 3 Swordies right away. You can usually make do with 2 as long as your not facing 3/1 barb defenders. Vs most other things 2 swordies will do ok, and will cut down the upkeep, until you get some more income coming in. Also with the 3 swodies + healer if your swordies form a line with one space between them and your healer then those enemy spearmen will not be able to reach them and still be close enough to be healed ounce the spears are thrown.

The main reason I gave the link above was because I gave basically a turn by turn overview of what I did and because having barb defended provinces when starting with a Wiz is probably the hardest start you can have. The only non barb was one hill and 2 swamps after all.

I remember failing barbarian start - demesne near the border, adjacent 2 provinces with resources (+1 to effective ring, 10-12 units) and 5 lizardmen. I had to spend around 20 turns in demesne with explore / nothing.
As for swordsmen/healers - I completed campaign with that combo, 27 shards, 26 I finished with strategist/tactic medals - no losses/no casualties/no reversions. On 27th got reversion due to power outage, so sad.

As for being strict... it is impossible. some events have forks, and same answer can be either + or - into karma. Like beggars - they can be true or false. Giving money to false beggars - to karma.

Ok I guess I misunderstood that because of the barbs things which are units from the evil side, which Loynis mentioned before. So you never want to do anything evil? Not even use summon imp if the wiz starts with it?
Also free settlements are in ring 3 and 4 are much easier than most encounters in ring 2 with 3 swords and a healer, if you got em some medals from the first ring.
I never had a problem with the random numbers generation, with a wiz I very much like swamps, since I mostly lack crystals for those juicy level 3 and 4 spells you often find early. Sometimes thats a problems on hills shards. Gold income comes from looting.