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General discussion6 community members went to GOG HQ(1041 posts)(1041 posts)
(1041 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 07, 2017
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Djaron: i already here the horde around here calling me a paranoid, but i had already 3 support tickets for 3 games in last year for such issues;
Which games ?
Posted October 07, 2017
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MarkoH01: I hate cliffhangers :(
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Wishbone: You were there! :-p
He's just waiting for your chapter about his ATM incident. ;-)
Posted October 07, 2017
low rated
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MarkoH01: In fact the actual legal situation if gamekeys are to be handled different than the actual game itself is completely unclear. Just take a look at point II here:

https://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/Thema/verkauf-computerspiele.html?page=3#sect_0
Well it says that it is not clear, so it could possibly be illegal or not. Who knows. All know ... to cut this short and not always repeat myself. I won't change my mind on this. Sorry.

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GR00T: Then you wouldn't have been invited (it was clearly stated in the invite e-mail that we would have to sign an NDA). If you got over there and then refused to sign, I'm not sure how they'd have handled that, but at the very least I assume you'd have not been allowed to participate in the discussion and the tour of the facilities.

You're jaded and cynical about GOG: I get that. But you're being completely unrealistic if you think any business would discuss finances, figures, future plans, and their business plan and not have it covered by an NDA.
I would have clearly stated that beforehand. If they want to hear my opinion, these are my conditions. (On a side note, I would never ever sign anything I do not fully understand like a NDA in a foreign language ... though I don't know if your NDA was german or english).
And really, I'm not interested in any numbers. If they tell me "we have enough money for like forever" I'm ok with that, but it should also be possible to talk about let's say the next game they are trying to release and maybe why it takes so long and why it maybe not come at all. If that is not possible, I don't see a good reason to go there. Just my stance on that.

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GR00T: Well, we got it straight from the horse's mouth. I tend to believe them rather than the German support guy. You can choose to believe whom you want.

Bottom line is this, and I said it before in a previous post: we're not going to convince you of anything because it appears you don't want to be convinced. Again, that's fine. We're only relaying our experience there and what we came to learn (that we're allowed to disclose). You say seeing is believing, and I agree with that. But we saw these guys in person, face to face. We asked them some hard questions; we took them to task over some of their previous decisions. And they gave us answers and reasons for what they did and do. And they admitted they fucked up on several things. I personally didn't see any indications they were being deceptive - and I like to think I'm no fool. Believe us or don't. Believe GOG or don't, it's up to you. I'll wait to see how things roll out, too. But I, for one, believe what they told us.
What I wanted to show with this is one problem of GOG. They have to tell their support their plan or else these things happen. Maybe if I ask again, I now get an other answer. Who knows? But this should not happen. Bad communication.

As I said before, I really want to believe GOG (and your optimistic view), but first GOG has to deliver, because of what I said before. Then, and only then I might come back to terms with GOG.
Posted October 07, 2017
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Wishbone: Watch this space for the next exciting installment: Wishbone's Tale: Part Two.
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MarkoH01: I hate cliffhangers :(
Unfortunately this is being produced By Fox, and inspite great veiwing figures, a strong cast and a producer that can literally shit gold bricks we're going to cancel this show.

If you're lucky you might get Wishbone the Movie in 4 years..
Post edited October 07, 2017 by mechmouse
Posted October 07, 2017
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Wishbone: Konrad was for some reason holding a black plastic spatula. I asked him about it, and he told me he'd forgotten the sign at the office, so he figured he needed something else to grab my attention, and the first thing he could get his hands on was this cheap plastic spatula that he bought somewhere :-D
That is so... gog. xD
Posted October 07, 2017
This thread needs a sister thread linking to all the best informative posts.
Posted October 07, 2017
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tfishell: This thread needs a sister thread linking to all the best informative posts.
Don't say it. Do it :D
Posted October 07, 2017
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tfishell: This thread needs a sister thread linking to all the best informative posts.
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MarkoH01: Don't say it. Do it :D
True. :P Doing it now.
Posted October 07, 2017
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JMich: MarkoH01 already answered you, but let me add a couple of things.
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lazydog: Naivity is another, this can be quickly resolved: Where is the resolution? Is their a resolution or is this NDA territory?
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JMich: See point 4. They do have plans to add a default installer option, so that is one thing they'll deal with. They did also bring members of the community in to discuss potential changes, so they do seem to be doing a bit of discussing before making any other changes.

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lazydog: Complications: Let GOG come here and say first hand that they wish to drop a core principle because it is too complicated.
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JMich: They didn't add regional pricing because it was complicated. They added regional pricing so they could continue to grow. The reasons for the current regional prices are complicated, and one can't say "Game X is priced this way, so game Y should also be priced that way".

Feel free to ask for more clarifications.
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Djaron: well, sorry to say that, but i already reached such a point with last few "off limit" moves from GOG, that now no NDA-shielded damage-control PR operation will change things from my side. Some reasons to my feeling are still in place and seem not to be solvable anytime soon.
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JMich: Perfectly understandable. We are not telling you that you should trust GOG explicitly now, nor are we telling you that everything will be fixed tomorrow. We are just saying that they did give us explanations for quite a few of their blunders.

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Djaron: But lets face it, how can someone expect to clean up and improve relation with its community/customer base through transparency yet at same time shielding some other obvious required disclosures behind an NDA.
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JMich: What would you consider required disclosures? Unlikely we can disclose them, but we could ask and get clarifications.

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Djaron: Basically it's like phoning someone just to tell him you dont want to talk with him !
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JMich: I saw it more like confessing and then getting the priest to explain your actions to the one you hurt. The priest does know the full story, but he's still not allowed to tell everything. You still don't want anything to do with the one confessing, but you may listen to someone else who knows the full story. Doesn't mean you'll be convinced of course.

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Djaron: I will wait for actual actions and transparency to really be in effect.
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JMich: Same thing we do. We got promises, now we are also waiting for them to keep them.
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Ghostfromthepast: Someone needs to tell Jmich that he needs to hone his joke telling skills. Come on "6 community members went to GOG HQ", ok, and then what?? Where's the rest of the joke, what's the story? Where's the punchline?? :P
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JMich: Blame the rest of the guys. Best we could do was "and they came back with all 12 kidneys still attached", which didn't sound all that funny.
Thank you for your reply JMich and I appreciate other input from all others who attended.

Unfortunately, my position remains as it was.

I feel no need to seek further clarification from you regarding any point.

GOG should be in here telling us and offering clarification, no one else. I do not wish to belittle you or anyone else who attended.

GOG remains high on my suspect list and none of the recent seriously questionable moves by GOG has been formally addressed by GOG.

GOG can rest assured that even on the whiff of the next naive move, I simply wont be a customer.
Posted October 07, 2017
high rated
WISHBONE'S TALE: PART THREE

The big day
So, I woke up around 5:45, having slept awfully, and I should NOT, ow! ... I should not have drunk quite as much as I did the night before. Dozed fretfully until about 6:30, then gave up on sleeping any more and got out of bed. I puttered around, watched a bit of YouTube on my laptop, took a shower, dressed, and then went down to the lobby to meet the other guys for breakfast.

Breakfast at the hotel was basic, but adequate. What was not adequate however, was the coffee machine. It was one of the fancy ones which grinds the beans for each cup and brews it as you wait. All well and good in many situations, but we were 6 guys all of whose internal mechanisms were screaming "COFFEE! NOW!" at us at the top of their voices. Needless to say, a lot of impatient queueing was going on.

Eventually we did all get our coffee and food, and gathered around a table to one side of the hotel cafeteria for a breakfast and chat. We talked about the goings-on the previous night, and about what was going to happen today. Even though we had all only met physically just the day before, the sense of camaraderie between us was already very powerful. After a second cup of coffee, I began to feel slightly more alive than dead, and felt somewhat ready for what was to come.

Breakfast over, we went back to our rooms to prepare, and then met back downstairs a bit before 9 to wait for the taxi which was being sent to pick us up.

Interlude: The Evil ATM
We were standing outside waiting for the taxi to arrive. There was an ATM right next to the hotel entrance. MarkoH01 wanted to withdraw a small amount of the local currency (PLN), in case we'd have a chance to buy something somewhere. He put his card in the machine and started navigating the menus. We were all standing around him talking. In the menu he ended up in, the smallest amount he could withdraw was 1000 PLN, which was much too much for the short time we were there. He cancelled the transaction, and the machine spat out his card. He turned to talk to us about it, and we agreed that there had to be an option to withdraw less than that.

At this point, MarkoH01 still not having taken the card out of the machine, the ATM decided that he must have left and forgotten his card in the machine. What happened next was... unfortunate. The machine flashed a brief message that we only just had time to see, saying that it was now going to appropriate the card for security reasons, and then it ate the card!

Needless to say, MarkoH01 was not happy about this turn of events. By now, the taxi had arrived and was waiting for us, but we had to deal with this situation before we could leave. The ATM had a customer service telephone number on it, so MarkoH01 enlisted the help of the Polish receptionist from the hotel, to call the customer service, explain the situation, and hopefully get them to get the ATM to return his card.

The rest of us were outside, discussing this unfortunate turn of events, when a dejected MarkoH01 came out of the lobby and announced that nope, there was nothing to be done. The card was gone, and would not be returned, but would in fact be shredded. There was nothing he could do except order a new card when he got home.

We were of course awfully sorry for him, but given that there was nothing any of us could do about the situation, we opted to get underway and hope that the day would get better soon. Thankfully, it did.

Watch this space for the next exciting installment: Wishbone's Tale: Part Four. It probably won't be until tomorrow though. I know I said that before as well, but this time I (probably) mean it ;-)
Attachments:
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Posted October 07, 2017
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Wishbone: The rest of us were outside, discussing this unfortunate turn of events, when a dejected MarkoH01 came out of the lobby and announced that nope, there was nothing to be done. The card was gone, and would not be returned, but would in fact be shredded. There was nothing he could do except order a new card when he got home.
A little addition here if I might. Meanwhile I blocked my old card and already got a new one. So no need for people to participate in a "bread for Marko" collection. I am not in immediate danger of starving or to not be able to pay for things I need. At this moment however it felt far more extreme than it was in the end and I guess I just panicked. Like I said then, it was not a biggie but it was a little dent in an otherwise just great experience. Thanks to Wishbone for recapping this event so accurate.

I haven't drawn a new statement of account yet so there still is the chance that somebody did some big shopping tour with my card before i was able to block it (or like PaterAlf said this was all a big scheme and all costs of this event were paid now using my card ;)) but I highly doubt it. So there is nothing to see anymore and things are back to normal.
Post edited October 07, 2017 by MarkoH01
Posted October 07, 2017
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JMich: [...] 2) DRM-Free: DRM-Free is here to stay. Even if the industry moves towards online or mixed experiences GOG will continue to offer fully offline installers and single player experiences that will not depend on any kind of network or client connection (though there might be an optional use of such capabilities, if the player wishes). [...]
[emphasis added]

Is the part I highlighted meant as "fully offline installers that will not depend on any kind of network or client connection" and "single player experiences that will not depend on any kind of network or client connection", or "fully offline installers" and "single player experiences that will not depend on any kind of network or client connection"?

On a side note, I got a "heh" moment reading this; sounds like an indirect admission that a client and DRM-free are not compatible. No need to comment on this, I'm not looking nor trying to start a debate on the DRM-free topic.
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JMich: [...] 4) Galaxy installers: Our understanding is that there was no malice behind the announcement, though naïveté was probably involved; they had a lot of support request from users complaining that their games didn't update, and that they didn't have access to multiplayer, achievements or cloud saves. These were from users that downloaded the games but didn't understand that they also had to install Galaxy to benefit from those extra features (despite all the banners and other "try Galaxy" buttons), so they wanted streamline the experience for those users. They underestimated the strong reaction from other more advanced users from the forum, and it resulted in the shitstorm we are all aware of. Classic installers will stay and an option to set default installers is coming (but we don't know when). And despite how the forum may feel about the Galaxy installers, according to GOG it did lessen the support load. [...]
[emphasis added]

Underestimating the reaction just goes to show how little they really know their userbase.

The point I'd like to make is related to the part I highlighted. I'll accept that the banners and buttons didn't do the trick for a number of users. However, they could have avoided both the load of support tickets, the workload to add the Galaxy installer to the standalone installers, and the shitstorm, if they had done a very simple thing, imo.

Take a look at the screenshot I've attached. See all that great empty grey space underneath the shelf where the "Share this" and "Go to my Account" buttons are (can't help a "heh" every time I see the order of the buttons)? Add a "Install Galaxy" button and put a revision of that blurb that is now on every game card in our accounts regarding the Galaxy-laden installers - a revision to make clear after installing the client, games can be installed using the client. In other words, make those users aware of the client, the need to download and install it to get the advertised features, and that they don't have to get game installers separately after that.

Make every purchase, redeemed gift & promo code open this page. Telling people right after a game has been added to their account to install the client will, imo, be much more effective than how this page works now, or how the various options to install a game are in the FAQ, a FAQ that not many will bother to read beforehand, and a number won't read anyway.

Should this fail for some (and it quite probably will), and they go to their account, revise the client button. Reward it to say "Install Galaxy", and add a blurb right under it to say "if you want <list of major features> install our client blah blah blah". Seriously GOG, you chose the current wording of that button out of fear you'd hurt the sensibilities of those that don't want to use it, yet when it failed to work for those that want it, you've gone with an extreme solution.

I'll be genuinely surprised and puzzled if nobody at GOG thought of this. If they have, the question then is why hasn't it been at least attempted?

I meant to post this in the thread about this that BKGaming made a few weeks ago, and never got around it, but I guess this thread is as good a place to make a suggestion.
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JMich: [...] 7) Forum: GOG knows the current forum software sucks, and they are looking at other options. Suggestions and opinions on required features were given. They know about the importance and are investigating the ideas we shared with them, but replacing the whole forum is not an easy task and will take some time so don't expect anything soon, however other improvements to the site might come in the meantime. [...]
Does "the site" refer to other parts of GOG's site, or does it also include the forum?
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JMich: [...] 8) Moderation: GOG did ask us for feedback, as they are looking on how to improve the forum moderation. [...]
Feedback on what exactly pertaining to moderation? Did the topic come up only for GOG to get feedback, or did they share any ideas/plans as to how to improve forum moderation, but you're bind by the NDA and can't say anything more?



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GR00T: [...] they took a lot of shit and some hard questions from us. [...]
Are the shit and questions, and how you asked them, also covered by the NDA, or can you freely share?


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GR00T: I really think they'll improve the communication with the forum community, for one thing. [...]
Is this your impression, or was that explicitly stated and there's an actual plan as to how they'll do it?



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PaterAlf: Yes. :)
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MarkoH01: It's already a few weeks away but I am pretty sure that we at least mentioned it. If not we really should have.... but yes, I am quite sure we told them. [...]
What exactly did you tell them, and in what context? Did anyone stress how unreliable the current notifications for updated games is? Did anyone ask why games with a changelog aren't flagged as updated? And if you did, is there any plan besides "we'll work on it from the grounds up eventually™"?

Also, did anyone bring up the issue of changelogs? And why game forum links on game pages is restricted to only In Dev games?



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JMich: [...] I know of at least 2 highly critical of GOG people that couldn't make it. I'm not going to name any names (we know 6 that didn't make it, and there should be a few more as well), it's up to them whether they want to step forward or not.
If I may ask, you know them by name because they told you themselves, or did GOG share with you who else was invited but didn't/couldn't/etc. attend?



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kbnrylaec: When GOG say Soon™, it is about 132 days.
(A blue said that they will fix the notification soon, and the bug was fixed 132 days later, while 3rd party script fixed it within 1 week.) [...]
What bug related to the notifications are you referring to?
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Posted October 07, 2017
Thanks for taking the time to report this. I for one am glad that GOG is asking active members for their input.

Keep up the good work GOG.
Posted October 07, 2017
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MarkoH01: It's already a few weeks away but I am pretty sure that we at least mentioned it. If not we really should have.... but yes, I am quite sure we told them. [...]
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HypersomniacLive: What exactly did you tell them, and in what context? Did anyone stress how unreliable the current notifications for updated games is? Did anyone ask why games with a changelog aren't flagged as updated? And if you did, is there any plan besides "we'll work on it from the grounds up eventually™"?
I think we talked about it in the context of backup management (they asked us how we handle that kind of thing). And yes we asked both questions. Can't really say anything about their plans, because I don't remember the exact answer. They took a lot of notes though.

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MarkoH01: Also, did anyone bring up the issue of changelogs? And why game forum links on game pages is restricted to only In Dev games?
Which issue of changelogs? I told them that it would be great, if they would be visible for everyone right on the store page of a game. Not completely sure about the second question, but I think someone mentioned it.
Posted October 07, 2017
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MarkoH01: And why game forum links on game pages is restricted to only In Dev games?
Sorry, since I use AF and BE I did not even know about this so I did not ask them.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion6 community members went to GOG HQ(1041 posts)(1041 posts)
(1041 posts)