I apologize if you took my comment the wrong way, two months later, I meant to illustrate that dtgreene likes to create parties that will ascend ASAP, while I create parties that take 2 years to complete.

Imagine that I create a Fighter with 100 Reflextion skill, and they get the best armor available from Ferro. This would be about on par with my Rogue with 100 Stealth skill, and near maxed Reflextion skill.

Actually, I prefer to create parties that will be useful and interesting throughout the game, in particular for what I consider the levels that a typical player will likely reach, which basically means levels 1-25 or so. I don't consider levels past 25 (and certainly not past 28), as the game will usually end before then. (Note that I still prefer that to ending at, say, 20 before level 7 magic becomes really good.)

Even better AC: Take that Rogue, change them into a Fighter after 100 Stealth, then give them the best armor available, along with the Light Shield. Now your AC is likely well past the range at which an enemy will have more than the minimum chance to hit. (Note that the difficulty modifier applies *after* this is done, so the character will still be about as hard to hit on Expert.) Of course, this much AC is clearly unnecessary in this game.

Yeah one of my plans with non-spellcaster characters is to multiclass into Rogue to get Stealth. Fighter, Bard, Gadgeteer, whoever.

Once you are around level 20 or so, hold back a level. When you have enough XP to almost level up twice, then switch to rogue. Go somewhere you can powertrain stealth by just standing there, and let your game run for a while on continuous. Get stealth (and Reflextion and if you have it Iron Skin too) maxed. Then switch back to your chosen class.


BTW, one way to powertrain Iron Will is to drink booze. It's slow but it works. You will also get a chance to train cure lesser condition when your drinker gets nauseated.

If I am playing a party with characters that will get Iron Will, I buy all the booze I can get from the various taverns and hoard it until I get PIE to 100 on someone. Mostly from He'li but the bar in the Umpani camp as well. Fuzzfas also has some booze sometimes.

I normally pile it all in one of the bedrooms in He'li's tavern so I don't have to lug it around.

The two expert skills that can be cheesed are Iron Will and SnakeSpeed. All the others (PowerStrike, PowerCast, Iron Skin, Reflextion, and Eagle Eye) have to be trained in real life (usually in combat).

For Iron Will, there is a casket in the Lower Monastery near where you fought Gregor. It's the middle left coffin, to be exact. It will constantly "cast" Noxious Fumes at your whole party. For anybody in your party with IW unlocked, this skill will rise. Keep doing this until IW is maxed for all party members with this skill unlocked.

For Snakespeed, you will want to wait until all party members unlock this skill. Pick a low-level, non-threatening enemy that won't run away (roaches in the Lower Monastery cell, or level 6 Savant Guards in Arnika). Kill all but 1 enemy to speed up combat. Let that last enemy hit your front character(s) for pathetic damage until they pass out. This may take days of game time, hours of real time. After thousands of rounds, your characters should all have maxed Snakespeed skill.

Any of the methods for power training magic skills should work for Power Cast.

(With that said, you probably only really need to do this for hybrids who have that skill.)

This is a good tip.

FWIW the guys in the front rank here will also powertrain reflextion, which trains whenever someone makes an attack against that character (not a spell). Stealth too if you have it.

Iron Skin also works this way except they have to actually hit you. So you want to remove your armor and AC items except for regeneration items. You can use some of the cursed stuff like the Cap of Wiles or the Oliveskin items to actually lower your AC if you need to.

Power Cast is arguably easier to train that many of the more physical skills, as any spells cast will train this skill. However, you can't just sit there casting buffs (they help), but you need to out there in the real world, fighting, to train this skill to max.

Most hybrids have other stats besides Intelligence to work on, so they won't even have time to get Power Cast. Even if they did, they suffer a -4 caster level penalty, so it's debatable if PC works for them.

Snake Speed works in a way that may be counter intuitive: You have to take actions for a skill increase. Defending counts as an action. So, by standing there, defending, for thousands of rounds, all 6 characters in your party are rolling for skill increases.

It's difficult to train my Rogue's Reflextion skill, because if I remove my Fighter, the magnet is gone. Melee enemies may no longer see my Rogue up front as a target, and may run to target the flanks. By having the Fighter up front, as a melee magnet, he will be targeted around 80-90% of the time, while my Rogue will still benefit from the Stealth check failing (he still gets attacked 10-20% of the time). This results in a very slow Reflextion skill increase.

I wonder if Iron Skin works with the Marten's Bluff traps (you know, the one that killed the T'Rang, where you get the T'Rang Arm). If you're taking physical damage from arrows, any characters with Iron Skin skill unlocked should also see skill increases.

Well, I don't completely buy this. Power cast will train on the casting of any spell, but I suspect that just like with training realms and spell school skills, the chances of an increase decrease the higher the skill goes, but increase based on the power level or mana cost of the spell being cast. So getting that last few points will take a long time, but could still be done casting divine trap on a chest over and over.

I don't bother ever putting skill points into power cast.

Here's one example; I recently started a new party. One of my bishops qualified for Power Cast at level 10. She is not yet 11th level and already has a power cast of over 60 mostly from powertraining with chests and the garage door in the bank vault. Mental magic is already 100 from doing this and Earth Magic is getting there.

The question is whether you want your hybrid to cast offensive spells or not. If yes, Power Cast is arguably worth it, even though your hybrid will never be as powerful as a full caster. For Lords and Valkyries the answer is probably no, but could be yes for the other classes.

Interesting.

You need to let your rogue stand by himself sometimes and put the fighter in a different spot.

In my previous playthrough, I had two characters max DEX around the same time, maybe level 12 or 13. I went back to the monastery roach room and put them in the front rank with shields and amulets of health. Everyone defends. Left the game running for a few hours and when I got back they both had 75+ in both shield and reflextion.

Interesting idea... a little tricky to test since I think it's just random who those arrows actually hit.

I'd probably use the one inside that has the 4 arrows going in different directions as they keep shooting for a while.

If you want healing spells to be the strongest they could possibly be, you need to get Power Cast. This is particularly applicable to Heal All, which at PL7 only heals around 70 per character without PC (but could, I believe, get past 90 average with high PC), and for which there isn't a higher level upgrade.

Forgive me for sounding like an elitist, but doing things like casting Charm on an already friendly NPC, casting Divine Trap at a chest repeatedly, and standing in the fire in Arnika casting Heal All repeatedly are all cheese.

The only exceptions should be skills that are impossible, almost impossible, or impractical to max, such as Locks and Traps, Scouting, Communication, Artifacts, and Pickpocket.

The rest comes down to player laziness. There, I said it.

I give two exceptions to the expert skills of Iron Skin and SnakeSpeed, as neither of these should reasonably be expected to be maxed in a normal game. You should not have to be pounded into infinity by enemy casters to max Iron Will, nor should you have to artificially delay combat to max SnakeSpeed.

Putting the Rogue up front by himself will make the melee enemies target someone else, you need the Fighter up front as a magnet.

The Priest, it makes sense to have Powercast for, as they are a full caster. For the Lord and Valkyrie, they have too many stats to work on, to worry about PC (and they suffer a -4 caster level penalty).

I really dislike this sort of elitist attitude.

In my case, I'm most likely to use these sorts of tricks if I need a few points in a skill. For example, if I need a few points to get another spell level before I level up, I'll use this sort of trick. If I don't really need that 1 point, or if I need a lot of points, I will generally just let it grow on its own (or spend level up points on it).

If a skill can go up in honorable combat, then that's the way that it should be. Most realm skills and spell book skills, as well as Powercast, can be maxed honorably. There is one exception that I give. This is to Divinity casters (Priest, Lord, Valkyrie), with their Mental realm. They only have Charm, Divine Trap, ID Item, and Sane Mind in that realm, making it near impossible to max that realm "in the real world". Therefore, my Valkyrie has been casting ID item at all mixed potions, powders, and bombs, so that she maxes out her Mental realm fairly. This has the side effect of making a lot of money for the party. So, karma. Not only am I doing the "right thing" (as the developers intended), but the party is making a lot of money.

Edit: Hell yeah I'm an Elitist, having produced a level 30+ party without cheating.

I actually would consider a player to be lazy for not doing this.

The game is clearly designed with powertraining in mind. There are many elements in the game that wouldn't be there at all if this wasn't the intent.

You can play however you like, and you can skip the powertraining tricks for "roleplaying" reasons, because it makes the game feel more real to you. But using those tricks is just playing the damn game the way it was designed.

The way the game was designed wasn't to sit in front of a chest, casting Divine Trap all day. It's cowardly, and lazy.

It's pretty clear from the design of the game that this was always intended to be an option. For example, there is no point at all to the 8-tumbler locked door in the underground vault, except to allow you to powertrain Knock Knock. There's nothing of any consequence behind it.

As far as the chests go, they could have made divine trap training work like the way door locks work, where you only get one chance to train Locks & Traps no matter how many tumblers you click on. It actually worked that way in an earlier patch but it was considered too easy. But no, they fixed the tumbler lock training method with a patch, but still let you train Knock Knock and Divine Trap over and over again. Also Charm and Mindread while we're at it.

Okay, we don't need the name-calling. You're the one who won't leave Arnika until level 31. You play your way and I'll play mine.